Trosis wrote:
By the time Opey ran out of chances, he already was fueled by distrust and what he felt was unfair judgement toward him. I’m not saying he shouldn’t be banned in the end. I’m trying to say that his behavior in the end was driven by how he was treated previously.
And my point is that I believe a lot of people with this disruptive behavior, leading to bans, follow a similar storyline. They were mistreated or unfairly judged with insufficient explanation, so they lashed out. I personally believe that the max ban should be (should have been... were too far gone at this point) a 5 year ban. That is enough time for a person to completely change.
I’ll also say that Opey’s offenses were not super extreme. He was a nucense, sure. But there wasn’t sexual harassment. He wasn’t oocly threatening people. He was just annoying from a rules point of view. Everyone was told “if you apologize and state that you’ve changed your ways, we’ll probably let you back.” Most people who have been banned have too much pride. They aren’t going to admit they were wrong because none of them really think they were wrong. (At least anyone that would consider apologizing)
But Opey was the bigger man. He sucked up his pride, which takes a lot and he should be commended for, and he wrote out a long message about how he was wrong and how he apologizes and how he’ll be a good contribution to the game. And he was denied. It doesn’t bode well for the imm trust. “Hey. Tell us we were right and all will be forgiven. Haha. Jk. Now you just told us we were right. Thanks.” That’s infuriating in a sense.
Just so you can follow your own line of thinking. Opey consistently abused other players repeatedly whenever he became angry at another player or staff for any reason. He repeatedly said he was sorry for the behavior only AFTER he was punished, and only AFTER he had lashed out against other players or staff. Despite catching previous bans for that exact behavior, when allowed back he did the exact same thing again, and again apologized. Eventually, apologies aren't enough. Eventually, someone has shown even if the regret is sincere, they are legitimately incapable of refraining from the behavior that is getting them in trouble, and ruining the experience of other players. You say his behavior wasn't extreme, I'd say anyone who has had that many chances, and still can't keep to the straight and narrow when really all that is being asked is not to be a flagrant jerk to other people is about as extreme as it gets. You know how hard it is not to log on an alt and kill someone you're upset with? You literally only have to do nothing. Sit on your hands if need be.
As long as you won't wrap your head around the fact that this is literally the worst kind of behavior to have in a collaborative game then this feels like an impasse. If you think this type of behavior is acceptable, then you should probably find somewhere else to play. We have to have more respect for everyone's time and effort than that.
Trosis wrote:
As for bug abuse... I have, in the past, sent a pray and said “I’m doing this. If this is a bug please PM me. If I receive no response, I will continue this behavior.” It’s gotten to the point where I have to word it like this because if I ask, I’ll never receive a response.
But a lot of times people don’t know they’re abusing a bug before they’re caught for cheating.
For example, I recently got murdered by a harlequin. A method that I’ve seen to prove that someone is actually who they say they are (insert cabal spell) is by removing a ring and wearing it again.
A (cabal spell) cannot remove equipment that they only “appear” to be wearing. It’s a method for protecting yourself against this spell. So is this a bug and am I going to get banned for it? Is this the same as demanding that someone walk up to a cabal HQ and say “enter?”
It’s a simple trick, but if I was a target in the Thuban Crusade, then I would bet money that I would get banned for this. Even though people have been doing this since the introduction of the cabal spell.
Again, lets take a look at what you're saying here. You're basically saying you sent up a prayer with a question about what could be a bug, and said if you don't get a response you'll assume it's not. What part of that do you actually think is wrong? I'd prefer you allow 24-48 hours for a response if I'm making wishes, but at the end of the day you're already being more respectful of the game and other players than almost anyone that has ever been punished for bug abuse. I'll add one small caveat, pleading ignorance isn't going to do anyone any favors. For instance, if you found an infinite XP bug or something of such an obviously wrong nature, and abused it as hard as possible while waiting for a response? Yeah, we're probably going to have to have an unfun conversation, but unless it's some kind of obviously wrong situation like that, I would say you're covered and did the right thing.
Trosis wrote:
Also, I got PK’d by this harly 2 weeks ago. I never met the person. Never said a word to him. After I got jlooted I got a “your writ has been fulfilled.”
Sure, we had some post-Pk rp... “I’ll kill you for this.” “Many want you killed, Kyln” yada yada.
So I’m okay with the Pk on an ooc Level. But a lot of coddled players now days would cry for a curse. But this PK added storyline, like I’ve said. And people need to accept this is how the game works. And the imms need to support that as well.
Pre-pk or post-Pk RP is all that is needed. I didn’t get griefed. I got out-played.
Everyone needs to embrace the conflict. And the fact that conflict was punished, I feel, is what has brought this game to a grinding halt.
Not to put too fine of a point on it, but I'm currently the Rules Manager. We've had dealings on this specific issue. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, you should have already seen my stance is that as long as there is some kind of RP that makes both sides feel involved, I'm pretty much okay with it. If not, I'll go ahead and point out that I've probably responded to a half-dozen complaints about the RP involved in a PK, and almost every time it has resulted in me having a conversation with both parties. Not curses, not bans, but a conversation encouraging them to do more RP, at least post-PK if nothing else, to make the victim feel less like a victim, and more like someone who feels involved in something.
Unless I'm wrong, I'm already what you want, and I'm already in the position of enforcing the rules, so regardless of me hoping the ranting makes you feel better, I'm wondering why this is even a concern? No one is being coddled, unless me wanting the best for everyone is coddling everyone I guess. I've been accused of coddling RPers, newbies, PKers, twinks, and basically every other sub-group that has ever existed in the game, and I don't mind because at least if everyone things I'm coddling them at least I'm probably being fair?
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm not telling you that your perception of things is wrong, I'm just saying it's your perception and you're the one in control of it. I can point out there are flaws in the logic, like the reality of how I handle PK/RP complaints being very different than what you're fearing. At the end of the day though, you have to decide whether to incorporate that into your perception or not. I can tell you that reporting things in a timely manner has saved people from punishments both from me, and other staffers, but I can't make you believe it.
People seem to have this weird idea that only one thing can be true at a time, when usually there are hundreds of statements about a topic that are equally true. It can simultaneously be true that someone wants to do better, but is also incapable of actually doing better. It can simultaneously be true that a punishment for a behavior is harsh, and that the behavior in question is still wrong. It can be true that someone feels persecuted, or attacked, and that no one is actually doing either of those things. I'm pretty sure every single person on this board has had the experience of doing their personal best, yet their best was still not good enough. One doesn't invalidate the other, it informs the other. Someone can be a superstar, a mechanically great player, and still be an overall negative to the group they are a part of because of behavioral problems.
There are dozens of teams in professional sports every year that deal with the exact same problem, it's not even a very unique issue. They try to fix the behavioral issues, they try to mitigate the behavioral issues, and often they try to ignore the behavioral issues. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and almost every team has a slightly different take, but eventually some players get traded or cut, regardless of the talent level of the player, and regardless of how much money/time/energy they have invested in the player. When that player leaves town, there are always fans that minimize the problems and bemoan the loss of such a great talent, but what those fans fail to recognize is that there isn't a GM in the world that wants to get rid of talent because they want/need to do well. The question never was whether or not the person was a great talent, both sides are in agreement on that even if they don't recognize it, the question always was whether or not the player is doing more harm than good. That's an incredibly hard thing to decide even with every possible shred of relevant information, so I don't get too upset when fans come up with a different conclusion, but it does bother me when fans jump to the conclusions about the people who were involved in making the decision.
One thing remains true though, those teams with the strongest character, the strongest team chemistry, the ones that share an ethos. Those are the ones that are able to withstand those situations best. They are more likely to fix problems, much more capable at mitigating them, and frankly much more likely avoid the problem in the first place. It's this idea that I really lean on when I say the way we all treat each other is of paramount importance, and why I believe the way we treated each other in the past was such a negative. We are better than that, I've seen it, I just would like to see that become the norm again, and see where that takes us.
Until then, we're all on the same ride as long as we choose to be, so we might as well enjoy it.
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