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 Post subject: Class Diversity
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:47 pm 
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Mortal

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:55 pm
Posts: 1110
Location: Ithaca, NY
I had this afternoon to myself, so I thought I might take a look at each of the classes and see how unique they really are. I tried to be as exhaustive as I could in looking at each class - the skills listed first are wholly unique, and those below them are semi-unique, being shared by no more than two other classes. Below that, I thought I'd try and classify the skills of each class into one of the three basic categories, for the purpose of comparing strengths and weaknesses.

Durability involves abilities that, plain and simple, allow someone to survive longer. Utility involves abilities that provide some kind of strategic advantage or boon to fellow players. Damage is pretty self-explanatory. Some abilities overlap.
Quote:
Mercenary:

rallying cry
retreat
specialize
blitzkrieg

bash (barbarian, giant)
enhanced parry (swashbuckler)
fourth attack (barbarian)

durability
passive: highest HPs, parry, shield block, dodge, enhanced parry, heavy armor bonus
active: disarm, bash, trip

utility
rallying cry, retreat, dirt kicking, trip, bash, rescue, dirt kicking

damage
passive: fourth attack, specialize
active: kick, bash, blitzkrieg

Quote:
Swashbuckler:

dual wield
taunt
finesse
riposte

enhanced parry (mercenary)

durability
passive: highest HPs, parry, dodge, enhanced parry
active: disarm, trip

utility
taunt, trip, dirt kicking

damage
passive: dual wield, finesse, riposte
active: kick

Quote:
Barbarian:

berserk/fury
alertness
blind fighting
toughness (griffon)
wild fighting
counterstrike
head butt

bash (mercenary, giant)
butcher (scout)
tracking (scout, warlock)
fourt attack (mercenary)

durability
passive: highest HPs, dodge, parry, shield block, toughness/heavy armor bonus, counterstrike
active: berserk/fury, bash, disarm,

utility
bash, rescue, dirt kicking, tracking

damage
passive: wild fighting/fourth attack, counterstrike
active: bash, berserk/fury

Quote:
Priest:

faerie fire (sprite, delf)
holy symbol
magical vestment
remove compulsion (cloth only)
faerie fog (sprite)
harm
mass healing
resurrection
religion spell

brew (shaman, warlock)
bless (paladin, shaman)
refresh (paladin, shaman)
frenzy (paladin, shaman)
detect poison (warlock)
cure poison (shaman, warlock)
cure deafness (paladin, shaman)
cure blindness (paladin, shaman)
protection (paladin, hellion)
cancellation (sorceror)
create food (paladin, shaman)
know alignment (paladin)
regenaration (shaman)
remove curse (paladin, shaman)
flamestrike (paladin, shaman)
spear of faith (paladin)
sanctuary (paladin, shaman)
summon (sorceror, necromancer)
enchant armor (sorceror)
enchant weapon (sorceror)
heal (shaman)
exorcism (shaman)
gate (sorceror)
holy word (paladin)

durability
passive: above average HPs, shield block, heavy armor bonus (faith-dependant)
active: armor, bless, magical vestment, protection, sanctuary, heal

utility
anti-maledictions, faerie fire, holy word, frenzy, enchant, brew

damage
flamestrike, spear of faith, harm, holy word

Quote:
Paladin:

call armor
bolt of glory

bless (priest, shaman)
refresh (priest, shaman)
frenzy (priest, shaman)
cure deafness (priest, shaman)
cure blindness (priest, shaman)
protection (priest, hellion)
create food (priest, shaman)
know alignment (priest)
remove curse (priest, shaman)
flamestrike (priest, shaman)
spear of faith (priest)
sanctuary (priest, shaman)
holy word (priest)

durability
passive: above average HPs, heavy armor bonus, shield block, dodge, parry
active: disarm, cure light, armor, protection, sanctuary

utility
anti-maledictions, frenzy, holy word, rescue

damage
passive: combat casting
active: flamestrike, spear of faith, bolt of glory, holy word

Quote:
Hellion:

cleave
intimidate
hellfire
domination

hide (rogue, halfling)
combat casting (hellion)
cause light (necromancer)
curse (shaman, necromancer)
blindness (shaman, necromancer)
chill touch (necromancer)
deafness (shaman, necromancer)
cause serious (necromancer)
poison (necromancer)
protection (priest, paladin)
weaken (shaman, necromancer)
plague (necromancer)
shield (necromancer, sorceror)
cause critical (necromancer)
rift (necromancer)

durability
passive: above average HPs, heavy armor bonus, shield block, dodge, parry, intimidate
active: protection, shield

utility
maledictions, domination

damage
passive: combat casting
active: cause light, chill touch, hellfire, domination

Quote:
Shaman:

spirit doll
spirit aura
call lightning
seance
spirit horde
voodoo

brew (priest, warlock)
bless (priest, paladin)
refresh (priest, paladin)
frenzy (priest, paladin)
cure deafness (priest, paladin)
cure blindness (priest, paladin)
create food (priest, paladin)
remove curse (priest, paladin)
flamestrike (priest, paladin)
sanctuary (priest, paladin)
curse (hellion, necromancer)
blindness (hellion, necromancer)
deafness (hellion, necromancer)
weaken (hellion, necromancer)
sleep (sorceror, necromancer)
raise dead (priest, warlock)
cure poison (priest, warlock)
regenaration (priest)
dispel magic (sorceror, necromancer)
control weather (warlock)
heal (priest)
exorcism (priest)

durability
passive: above average HPs, shield block, dodge
active: armor, bless, sanctuary, spirit aura, heal

utility
maledictions, anti-maledictions, spirit horde, spirit doll, dispel magic, frenzy, brew

damage
flamestrike, spirit aura, call lightning, voodoo

Quote:
Bard:

dance
tumbling
lore
persuade
songs

disguise (rogue, scout)
pick lock (rogue)
plant (rogue)

durability
passive: below average HPs, dodge, parry
active: dance, tumbling, disarm, protection, healing, antimagic, sleep, silence, countersongs

utility
trip, persuade, disarm, healing, dancing, magic, antimagic, sleep, silence, scrolls

damage
c major, songs of death, f minor, b augmented sixth

Quote:
Rogue:

(dual) backstab
steal
peek
circle stab
hamstring

hide (hellion, halfling)
disguise (bard, scout)

durability
passive: below average HPs, shield block, dodge, parry
active: trip, disarm

utility
trip, disarm, hamstring, scrolls

damage
(dual) backstab, circle stab, hamstring

Quote:
Scout:

fletch
tame
camouflage
herbalism
skin
pathfinding
rapid shot
snare
ambush

butcher (barbarian)
disguise (rogue, bard)
tracking (barbarian, warlock)

durability
passive: below average HPs, shield block, parry, dodge
active: herbalism, tame

utility
herbalism, tame, rescue, pathfinding, tracking, snare, skin

damage
tame, rapid shot, ambush

Quote:
Sorceror:

change sex
magic missile
ventriloquate
color spray
enlarge
shrink
giant strength
acid blast
mirror image
understand
airy water
charm person
etherealform
haste
tongues
polymorph
depetrification
petrification
final strike

scribe (necromancer)
fly (warlock, necromancer)
cancellation (priest)
dispel magic (shaman, necromancer)
mass invis (warlock)
enchant armor (priest)
enchant weapon (priest)
sleep (shaman, necromancer)
summon (priest, necromancer)
shield (hellion, necromancer)
spell ward (necromancer)
teleport (necromancer)
gate (priest)

durability
passive: lowest HPs, dodge
active: armor, fly, sleep, mirror image, shield, charm person, etherealform, spell ward

utility
fly, dispel magic, cancellation, charm person, polymorph, haste, giant strength, enchant, scribe

damage
charm person, magic missile, color spray, acid blast, petrification, final strike

Quote:
Warlock:

burning hands
create spring
healing rays
lightning bolt
resist elements
conjure elemental
fireball
stone skin
earthquake
ironguard
chain lightning
cone of cold
magma spray

tracking (barbarian, scout)
brew (priest, shaman)
water breathing (shaman)
control weather (shaman)
mass invis (sorceror)
breath of life (priest, shaman)

durability
passive: lowest HPs, dodge
acitve: fly, healing rays, stoneskin, ironguard, conjure elemental

utility
fly, conjure elemental, tracking, brew

damage
burning hands, shocking grasp, lightning bolt, conjure elemental, fireball, earthquake, chain lightning, cone of cold, magma spray

Quote:
Necromancer:

death shroud
animate dead
feeblemind
fear
vampiric touch
control undead
energy drain
finger of death

scribe (sorceror)
cause light (hellion)
blindness (hellion, shaman)
chill touch (hellion)
deafness (hellion, shaman)
fly (sorceror, warlock)
cause serious (hellion)
sleep (shaman, sorceror)
weaken (hellion, shaman)
curse (hellion, shaman)
poison (hellion, shaman)
slow (shaman, sorceror)
shield (hellion, sorceror)
teleport (sorceror)
cause critical (hellion)
dispel magic (shaman, sorceror)
plague [i](hellion)
summon (priest, sorceror)
rift (hellion)
spell ward (sorceror)

durability
passive: lowest HPs, dodge
active: armor, animate dead, fly, sleep, shield, fear, control undead, spell ward

utility
maledictions, animate dead, control undead, dispel magic, scribe

damage
cause light, chill touch, animate dead, vampiric touch, energy drain, finger of death


My goal here was to highlight, in a quantitative manner, some of the issues of variety and the weakness of specific skills and spells, and how access to other skillsets via brewing and scribing masks some of the inherent class imbalances.

Take, for example, mercenaries. They're the staple warrior class in SK, but with their skillset, they lack any real damage-dealing capabilities. Blitzkrieg is unusable during combat , and the damage from kick is strictly inferior to the physical and strategical advantage provided by bash. However, specialize and fourth attack provide a strong potential that is unleashed when giant strength, frenzy, haste, and other buffs are applied, bringing them up to the level of damage that is expected of them. Without these abilities, they are, at best, marginally superior to most other classes, and certainly inferior to their fighter counterpart, barbarians.

Examining rogues is also worthwhile. Even with the utility provided by access to scrolls, the class is in dire need of diversity. Their lack of solo survivability relegates them to a purely support role. While they fit this roll fairly well, they provide little more than some extra damage and the often unnecessary assurance that your opponent won't be running away. This was discussed not too long ago in a thread by Juggs, but I feel like it's worth mentioning.

A look at shamans shows that they are indeed fine and dandy regardless of voodoo - good survivability and strong utility, with decent damage based the situation.

Hellions may appear to be as weak as some have said in recent weeks, based on a look at the list, especially in comparison to paladins. But, it's important to remember the level of synergy between a hellion's abilities, and the amount of versatility provided by the skillset. Paladins are much more geared for survivability and support, while hellions have superior strategical utility and a better control over how and where they can make use of their stronger damage abilities.

Anyways, just some info for thought. Let me know if I made any mistakes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:56 am
Posts: 1858
mercenaries have fourth attack, enhanced damage and specialize. If that doesn't increase or give them the ability to do damage then I don't know what does.

Try taking a paladin or rogue up in straight combat with a mercenary. They just don't compete in straight out melee. Your viewpoint is just awkward, that's all.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:55 pm
Posts: 1110
Location: Ithaca, NY
I didn't include enhanced damage because every class that has third attack, also has enhanced damage. In essence, you're talking about one extra attack, if you've got the speed for it. Spec plays a part in getting that speed, but even then, you aren't guaranteed to be making use of your fourth possible strike.

I'm not saying they can't do damage. I just think they're really lacking in adaptability and diversity, and because of that, are not as strong as they should be. Once you've got your spec laid out, there's nothing too complicated about how to fight, or how to prepare, as shown by the sheer lack of abilities. They don't adapt to various situations, except in how they choose their weapons. Damaging abilities are what's needed to add strategy and thought to mercenary combat.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:59 am
Posts: 318
Location: Tempe, AZ
Funny, I didn't know rogues were melee combat characters. I always thought they were the gank and run away type.

I guess that's just me.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:38 pm 
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Mortal Philanthropist

Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:58 pm
Posts: 3632
Location: Spokane, WA
Sorry, 2 atks for shamans + 0 dmg buffs = crap for dmg.
Everyone of the fighter class are better at tanking.
They are alright at healing. Making them the second choice for healing if there isn't a priest.
Voodoo makes or breaks the class. Which is sad.

There is at least 3-4 classes that does whatever a shaman can do but better.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:34 pm 
Yeah, too bad nobody can single-handedly own a group's face like a shaman can. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:58 pm
Posts: 3632
Location: Spokane, WA
Syndal wrote:
Yeah, too bad nobody can single-handedly own a group's face like a shaman can. :wink:


Maybe back in the day when SA stacked with shield and did damage before the reduction.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:43 pm 
It's called join a Tribunal, get a guard, buy a pet, and keep the weather in your country perfect. :devil:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:42 pm
Posts: 944
I feel barbarians need a bit of tweaking with say fist damage or possibly more available claws.

As it stands, any swashie or merc with mastered Eparry kinda negates the point of a barb with mastered Wild fighting as they can still parry the blows, and quite a good chunk of em.

Also, berserk and fury perhaps need a bit of tweaking. For example, berserk gives a bonus to weapon damage and accuracy i believe while Fury, which you learn later, gives a bonus to weapon speed and willpower as well. Fury however, once learned, is quite tedious to train. You have to be pretty lucky for it to actually kick in and even then getting a skill improve can be rare. I remember it took me about..I think anywheres from a week or so on my barb just to learn it to very good so I could advance train it. Basically, I believe berserk alone should give the bonus to weapon speed, damage and probability to hit. Fury should just give a greater bonus and heal.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:55 pm
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Location: Ithaca, NY
Muktar, that was such a narrow-minded examination of the skillset that I can't help but think you're joking.

Shamans don't get enhanced damage - that's basically as obvious a sign as you can get, that they aren't dealing primary melee damage. Call lightning is a situational spell that can deal strong damage. They're not designed to be strong damage no matter how you look at it, it's like complaining that sorcerors can't tank. Spirit aura, combined with sanctuary, dodge, and shield block makes for very decent tanking, especially as a high-DEX class such as a sprite. Aside from all their other maledictions - which they have more of than any class except necromancers - they have free use of frenzy, which can instantly rip the face off any caster. Why you say they're a second choice for healing is beyond me - a heal is a heal is a heal. They don't have mass healing, but that's almost useless anyways.

None of their strengths rely on voodoo.


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