Shattered Kingdoms

Can anyone direct me towards the large downside that such a massive change like this surely has?

..Oh, what's that? It has no downside? You just get 100% accuracy with the most damaging weapons in the game? Hm. Weird.

Massive weapons have made the non-massive 2-h weapons completely useless. If you are going to use a 2-h weapon, why would you not use one with the massive flag?

Not only has it screwed the subtype system up worse than it already was, but..this is a huge buff, that only affects 4 classes positively. Merc, Barb, Hellion, Paladin. The only 4 classes that can viably use the massive weapons. And it is a huge negative to all the hybrid/adventurer classes who already had to gtfo once they were getting hit by melee. Now they have no chance once they are being targeted. What are classes like Swashie or Shaman who previously depended on being able to avoid being hit going to do? They're going to die. Even on mood defensive with 25 dex, 95% of attacks from a massive weapon will land (if not 100%).

There's no way to 'counter' someone using a massive weapon, other than to just..not engage them.

The only possible downsides you can point out about massive weapons is that they are --

A) 2-handed. But, people have always used 2-handed weapons anyways. And half of the massive weapons have reach, so you can get all the offensive bonuses of using one, with no more negative side-affects than a merc spec'd in Battle-Spear would've gotten a year ago.

B) They're slow. Okay. But..this affects nothing except number of attacks. And that doesn't matter when all of them are landing. The only reason you needed to get 6 melee attacks before was because half of them get parried. 4 hits from a high damaging weapon that will never get parried/shield blocked beats out 6 melee attacks from a low damage weapon. Considering 3-4+ of those attacks will miss.

C) Crappy at defending. Well, duh. It's a 2-h weapon. How is this any different from using a normal 2-h weapon like a flamberge? It's not, but you still get the benefits of the massive flag.

Massive weapons are clearly meant to be used by those on the offensive, as it stands though..there is no difference between using a 2-h massive weapon and a 2-h normal weapon except..the massive weapon is about 10x better due to there being no downside to using it, and a huge bonus to doing so.

I have a couple of possible suggestions regarding massive weapons. I'm not saying they're great. But this change clearly needs a downside to match the huge benefit of massive weapons.

1) Completely remove the ability to parry when wielding a massive weapon. You are doing more damage than anyone with any other weapon, and all your hits are landing? Why should you get to parry half of someone else's attacks too? How is a guy with a halberd parrying an epee exactly, anyways?

2) Tweak the 'reach' of massive weapons, so that the reaching massive weapons can not be used unless you are in the front row. But let them still reach into the second row of enemy formations. Why should you get this huge boost to your offense, with no risk involved while you sit safely behind someone else. (An NPC who doesn't matter, given the current climate of the game.)

Sprite shaman with 25 Dex had a 50% evasion rate against a massive weapon, and that was prior to the latest adjustment downward on massive weapon speed and accuracy. Thanks for coming out, though.

Sprite Shaman with <insert cabal skill> I assume?

I'm not sure that counts.

And I'd like to see a log of someone you know, actually tanking a massive weapon, and not getting hit with every attack.

P.S. Speed and Accuracy are the two stats that do not matter at all with massive weapons. There are plenty of ways to bring up accuracy. And 3 hits that land > 6 hits that don't.

I will admit I might be out of the loop, but I haven't seen anything to show that massive weapons have changed.

Nah, cabal skill wasn't active. The log's on the site that hosts those. Precisely a 50% evasion rate.

EDIT: Also, that cabal skill doesn't provide THAT much extra evasion.

Accuracy from the massive flag. Not actual weapon accuracy. IE avoiding shield blocks/parries.

Your 25 dex sprite shield blocked a whopping 4 times. The massive flag doesn't affect dodge, I suppose, looking at that. Lots of dodges.

On Huneria I *always* dodged a lot more than shield blocked.

My point is it's very possible to tank massive weapons if you're built to tank.

Your assertions are false. I've tested massive weaponry since the "wimp" against two different swashbucklers and they have performed reliably well against my bill spec. They also do not do outrageous damage against people who properly buff up. I used a +10 damage cold iron bill against Huneria, and failed to kill her. I also had frenzy and giant strength. That was before the wimp. With all of those damage bonuses, isn't it telling? There also may, or may not be a bug affecting reach weapons, two-handed weapons or whatever that causes them to incorrectly calculate weapon speed when taking hits.

Furthermore, after the massive weapon wimp, a massive type weapon will quickly exhaust a character. I'm pretty sure I have as much movement as an elf mercenary can possibly have, and I easily chew through movement like it is candy. I'd posit more so than an epee wielding mercenary.

As for a lot of my PK using a bill spec, that was just me taking risks and having it pay off. I really don't recommend trying that stuff. I take *way* more damage using my bill than I do with an unspecced rapier, and shield. They also tend to be heavy weapons, so use of weaken can make people drop them. At size medium, my bill, and just about every other one weighs 17 lbs. The only one I've seen that is decent is that rigged halberd, the carnager.

I think maybe you should have rolled a character to test your assertions instead of doing thought experiments.

Maybe I will do that.

One Peacekeeper barb coming up!

I wish you and ardith could get along 'cause that would be badass

You haven't played along side her very much, have you?