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 Post subject: Ideas: More regulation for hoarding / item transfers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
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Location: Redwood City, California
This thread has been generated based on the poll completed here in which the 'More regulation: hoarding' option took fourth place.

Please list your ideas here regarding how to regulation both hoarding and stop item transfer cheating. Ground rules as follows: This will be full-out brainstorming. Anything goes. I'm curious what people come up with. But I'm not likely to comment on which if any of these ideas will get implemented.

If there's a good workable idea buried in here, then one day people will just suddenly start getting busted.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas: More regulation for hoarding / item transfers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:21 pm
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Just limit the number of eq a person can hold, when they logoff that is, if they are over that threshold for that class, thieves strips them until are at the limit again. If a person is holding what is typically a cross aura item, thieves takes it. Different classes needs a different level of eq but I doubt any class ever needs more than 1xtra suit of armor.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas: More regulation for hoarding / item transfers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Subject: Required hours to stop hoarders. PLEASE VOTE

grep wrote:
I got linked to this thread and thought I'd stir the pot with some suggestions. This is how I would begin to approach the issue:

Add a 2x33-element array to each rare item. This array is a "hoarding factor" for each race, alignment, and class ranging from 0 (not hoarding) to whatever you want to cap the variable at. Defaulting this value to zero for items would be good if you don't already define an item as rare somehow. hoarding_factor["human"] and so on. Write this in terms of a public class function such as hoarding_factor("human") if you want to make the code more tough, since I'm guessing this is still C-ish stuff we're talking about here; you can allow only certain types of builders to alter hoarding factors on items, perhaps, which might be advantageous for the needs of builders.

Add an integer to each item representing a new, hoarding decay timer. It could have a default or be customizable to suit a builder's taste.

At a certain interval, run a function: Look up the hoarding factor of an item for the race, alignment, and class of the character holding it. Perform a disjunction operation (logical OR) on these three integers. The result is only false if the character's possession is not defined as "hoarding" by the builder who made the item (0 or 0 or 0). The result is true if ANY definitions of "hoarding" are true. ("If hoarding[race] or hoarding[class] or hoarding[alignment] then run hoarding penalty.")

Add a hoarding penalty function. Take either the max or combination of a character's different hoarding rates for an item based on true race, class, and alignment. Subtract this result from the hoarding decay timer. If the timer runs out, the item rots or is flagged for logout theft or simply vanishes without letting the character know until he or she looks for it.

Once that's done, each item now has an automatic and flexible system to allow anyone to have the item, but there are now risks and costs to holding something you really should not. It aligns with the item level enforcement code in this sense. Combined with a modest requirement for online presence, the most heinous and incendiary types of hoarding would be rendered impractical with no perceived impact to what is considered fair play for these items. There would be no one requirement for people to discover and work against; the landscape is as dynamic as builders want it to be.

Furthermore, if you wanted a long-term way to get at the real problem, add two variables to a character's pfile: effective hoarding and lifetime hoarding. Every time a hoarding timer decays, add the decay to both variables. You now have the ability to sort SK players by hoarding history and do whatever you want with that data, such as penalizing loyalty tokens or having rare items zap characters who have a hoarding factor for themselves until they have their effective hoarding removed by an administrator, while the lifetime hoarding still allows the information to stay on file.

If you wanted this to be leaner you could calculate a character's hoarding factor on an item whenever it enters his or her inventory and store it on the item to save on calculations each tick, but you might invite curious functionalities with that depending on the current status of inventory management code.

If you wanted this to be harsher you could add hoarding factors for just about anything, such as whether the item is being worn, has been used recently (if you have that recorded by items presently), and so on. That's a matter of scope.

If you had the time, adding a log of rare item movements would allow you to cross-check a character's pfile to judge whether or not someone was avoiding this system by, for example, continually stashing items during their attempts to reach a minimum monthly online time. Or, from another perspective, if an item is "away from home," but not held by anyone, allow its timer to drop without penalizing anyone in particular. The item still loses potency and, perhaps, the practice becomes just as impractical.

The only potential challenge to this would be certain items that "morph" into different items by destroying and creating items anew. I don't know how it works in detail so I won't presume to have ideas on solutions to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas: More regulation for hoarding / item transfers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:51 am
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No need to get fancy - you already have the framework in place, which requires a character to log ~30 hours per month in order to avoid the code stripping their loot. Problem is they can spend that time anywhere, like a cabal HQ where there is virtually no risk to lose the loot since they can simply log out if someone attempts to break the outer guardian.

Just tweak the existing code to only count hours spent in The Hart and Rose, The Crossroads Inn, The Rumbling Zakami, The Longhouse, and The Waxing Moon. It won't hurt anyone to spend a little more time being sociable and only counting hours spent at an inn ensures there is plenty of opportunity for "hoarded" loot to change hands.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas: More regulation for hoarding / item transfers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:15 pm 
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http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/power ... eading.htm" target="_BLANK

Give players the ability to submit logs to immortals that actually contain actionable information. That might assist with regulation.


Also of super importance might be actually defining hoarding officially. I'm sure some people define hoarding as "having anything I want and avoiding PVP with me."


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas: More regulation for hoarding / item transfers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:43 am
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SK Character: Airkli
A serious inventory of scripted items needs to be conducted. Those that are aggressively sought after and are easy to obtain should be log-rot. I can think of several. This can be applied to more than scripted loot, but also certain wands and staves that are purchasable. Should one person carry four sanc staves for a rainy day? No. You go get one when you need it.

Finney's idea is also good.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas: More regulation for hoarding / item transfers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 7:25 pm
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I don't have any ideas but without trying to start a flame war, I'd be very careful about who you listen to as far as trying to figure this out. I'm not sure that players who have demonstrated very little practical game or mechanical knowledge should be offering advice in this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas: More regulation for hoarding / item transfers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:56 pm 
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Maybe the best place to start with this thread would be trying to come to some sort of agreement about what actually constitutes hoarding. I don't see much problem with an active player holding four sanctuary staves, for example. I would have more than one on my priest right now if I could get my hands on them, because there's a great advantage to be gained from having multiples. I do see a problem with a player with multiple alts holding limited items on their lesser played alts. And I think everyone sees a problem with players with multiple alts holding limited items to transfer to their OOC friends' new characters upon creation.

It's usually very easy for a "vet" to tell who is a hoarder and who is a player with a bunch of loot who's hard to kill and doesn't take a lot of risks. Punishing the second kind of player because your average SKer has no chance at ever delooting them is a bad idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas: More regulation for hoarding / item transfers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:43 am
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SK Character: Airkli
Mcbeth wrote:
I don't have any ideas but without trying to start a flame war, I'd be very careful about who you listen to as far as trying to figure this out. I'm not sure that players who have demonstrated very little practical game or mechanical knowledge should be offering advice in this thread.


I agree. You and me want the same thing, we just have different ways of going about it. Is your character going on daily trips that necessitates four sanctuary staves? Doubtful. Does anyone? Having multiples is useful, and with my suggestion, you can have multiples when you NEED them. So can everyone else. With items, of any variety, you should want it because you want to use it. Not because you think you might need it in a week when your buddy logs on and wants to go on a ToM trip.

Characters fade into inactivity and things don't get recycled back into the game for far too long. Or they play multiple characters and want them both to be super awesome. I'm just saying, easy to obtain things that have a notable degree of utility should be log-rot.

Items activated by a keyword could have a cap on their uses. Nothing stopping someone from junking the item when it gets down to 1 and immediately going to reclaim it. But at least they are having to work to keep it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas: More regulation for hoarding / item transfers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:50 pm
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A robust enough tradeskill system could obsolete the entire premise of hoarding. Are we willing to give up scarcity as a mechanic in order to do so? I don't see anything wrong with that, but I'm sure some people might come up with something.

As said earlier though, definitely, yes, what would help is if "help hoarding" gave definitions and listed punishments. It isn't a question of "more" regulation if there are no accessible regulations to begin with.


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