Shattered Kingdoms

The real reason nobody plays a bard is because I boycotted them.

Hah!

Konrin - I didn't make a flame - all I said was that bards weren't utterly worthless aside from those two songs - and I know this by experience. If I HAD made a flame, my forumID probably would've been removed, and I'd have been unable to post.

Err the flame comment was actually at Cyra, sorry. As for the other spells not being useless, I duno man I think they are but whatever. I'm probably never going to use anything except sleep, silence, dancing and healing I can't think of any situation where one of the others would be better unless I'm fighting like a NPC that has 1 attack around in which case I'd use war or protection but...how often does that happen?

I like the one that gives your party mana without resting.

Thats healing, included in my list of useful stuff.

I recall a few bards who did a lot by themselves.

Oh, shut up Cyra. Songs of Sleep are the only worthy thing a bard can really do during a group PK and you know it well. Stop whinning because it is one of the very few things that can ruin a swashbuckler. After all, there ARE several ways to make a bard unable to sing them, especially if he doesn't have great INT. Now, calling bards overpowered is one of the most lame whinings I have seen in here. I would much rather prefer necromancers lose the locate object spell, since in no roleplaying game other than SKs it fits the necromantic arcane school. But that would hurt you too much, wouldn't it?

As far as I can see the reason bards are unpopular is because they are not needed by others but need others to shine. Their weakness is they are dependant on others. Most people who play SK dislike this dependents and will just roll a char that doesnt have this weakness (every single other class).
The average P v E a two person group can handle. The make up of a group is Tank, healer, problem solver (ie person who does the killing). This can be found in most two or three person groups. The problem is a bard doesnt really fit into any of these categories. Where a bard needs the group the group doesnt need the bard.

Song of healing is nice but its really only a time saver hardly ever used in combat. How often does the thought Gee lucky for that song of healing or we would have been stuffed come up. Song of sleep is powerful in group combat but one on one I never had a problem facing it.

If any of the bard powers where wimped something major would have to be give to them perhaps persuade working enough to be worth while using (I have never landed a persuade on a GM PC even got to spam it four times in a row against one necro). Shield block would be a bard saver, but I think E parry more suits the idea of a dancing bard. The idea of a bard being over powered in its current form is just wrong this can be seen by the number of people playing them past master.

Songs of sleep are simply broken.

No save, when the bard begins singing them you can forget about dodge/parry/shield block, you never land a hit, you can't trip/bash well, you can't disarm and will always get disarmed all the time.

Songs of silence are hard to resist but they can be resisted with enough willpower.

Adding a save similar to the one of songs of silence would balance them, most people will still get affected instantly but will give those people with very good willpower a chance to resist them for a few seconds.

And yet taunt can't get a willpower save.

And taunt is way more powerful than any songs.

Best thing you can hope for songs of sleep should be a CHA vs WIS check, which would be broken anyway from my tests with taunt.