Shattered Kingdoms

You cant insult me, Muktard.

Hard get lower indeed, sir.

For bash to be nerfed, it can only happen if (and only if) changes are made to the chasing/escaping dynamic in the game. For this to happen, you need a few changes:

- Fly has to get worse.
- Word of recall needs to be completely reworked.
- Recall needs to be changed a little.
- Flee needs to not be so spammable (there also needs to be a counter to flee in this case that isn't just "chase the guy")

I already see some problems with changing the dynamic to make chasing a more important skill in PvP:

- A reliable method of plain-eye tracking needs to exist (otherwise the tracking skill is too necessary for combat) for people to not just flee and get away. It's painfully easy to get away from a group right now if you aren't busy being... you know... bashed! Obviously, plain-eye tracking needs to be crappy and automatic for the tracking skill to stay good.
- A way for a group or character to "move faster" than the current movement speed limits, either via spell or skill, that can be used as a way to chase down a fleeing enemy.
- Bounty NPCs need to be replaced by choke points in cities and guard stations in surrounding territories (think the legionnaire stations for the Empire).

I don't think lowering the chance of bash working is the way to do it, though: you ought to change it so that people have other options to do despite bashing, but keep bash a really good option. Bash ought to be used to WRAP UP a kill, not to force people to stay and fight (if someone barely engages and you want to guarantee they stay and fight, you have a myriad set of other skills that exist that can be put toward that goal); so, if you land a bash, the person who got HIT by the bash ought to have a whole round of prone-immunity after the bash to make a meaningful decision.

Do I stay? Do I quaff a good potion? Do I use a skill, or a quick spell? Do I flee? Do I bash back? Do I tumble behind someone else?



Except this never happens. The risk VS reward in this situation is so violently skewed in the favor of the basher that it's absurd. A missed bash is actually often a free pass to the person getting bashed to escape. Rarely is it the death of the basher, except in group vs group situations. Even then, buffs practically prevent bashes from ever missing their intended target.

I have to strongly disagree with this statement. The conditions for bash mean that you are standing in the front row, in a position of maximum vulnerability for all but rogues. And there are basically two categories of people that you can be bashing in that circumstance: those who also belong on the front row (and who, by extension, should also be able to knock you prone -- sorry swashies), and those who have absolutely no business being on the front row.

In the former case, Edoras likes to use the term "bash privilege", and I agree with this sentiment. The person who knocks the other prone first receives the benefit of controlling the fight, which is perfectly legitimate, and doesn't really leave much room for complaint, especially since a well-timed order can often provide the opportunity of escape.

In the latter case, being knocked prone when you have no business on the front row is the equalizer of the lower risk you had prior to being in the front row. In other words, if you have no business being in F1, you had sure better be in M1 or B1 when the action starts (and shame on you if you weren't). While you are hiding behind the relative safety of something else, the melee character is putting everything on the line, including being knocked prone himself with little possibility of reward. Only an overcommitted second rank character gets bash-locked, and that's the way it should be: it's the melee characters' reward for tearing through their defenses.



I've advocated changes to bash before, and I still am relatively against spam-bashing (and wouldn't mind seeing the same lag introduced on bashing an already prone character that they have while trying to perform an action), but I'm not complaining when it happens: I've played both sides of this fence, and being bash-locked has never been the primary cause of death -- it's always the secondary result of some other stupid move that predicated it.

I'm not so sure that a single action at the beginning of the fight dictating an entire engagement makes for very interesting combat.

As for "lag", I am completely and utterly against any type of lag that prevents any kind of input from a user being thrown into a queue that eventually has to resolve, primarily because I really, really hate spamming. I especially hate that the only way to clear a queue is to reconnect, which is... randomly ridiculous.

EDIT: I will address your other points in a separate thread and later, when I'm not trying to finish something at work.

I strongly disagree with you Sargas. There are so many newbs that go into PK and just type bash for the hell of it, and it backfires on them by them actually successfully bashing their opponent, and being unable to outdamage them, or flat out missing it. Bash also can disable someone who spams quaff, I like that.

On the other end there is this skill called trip, which for all intents and purposes is [REDACTED] useless. You really get to see this when you play a second row mercenary, and everybody is flying in PvP, and you wouldn't believe the amount of NPCs that fly in the PvE game, and *now* have no legs to trip. Also, it fails a [REDACTED] ton more than bash.

I think the only thing I can agree upon right now is that fly needs to get worse. This will make tracking more valuable, and trip more valuable. Thus there will be more barb/scouts/warlocks ideally for tracking down newbs that flee, and swashbucklers will become more common for taunt to disable word of recall. That's my supposition, anyway. You've also got paladins for bolt of glory on some darkies. And you're also forgetting about a great killer--weaken.

The "penalty" on fly is completely negligible, and I really doubt anyone could reasonably argue otherwise. Shouldn't really take that much to increase it, and it's been mentioned so much by so many that I'm really surprised it still remains as inconsequential as it is right now.

Mercenaries do not need a buff to trip. The fact that there's a CHANCE you can safely hide behind an NPC and try to knock someone prone is good enough.

Swashbucklers need a buff to trip.

Whatever swashbucklers get, mercenaries are going to get too, although I'm not really trying to argue on the sake of my class. It's just an observation to how useless trip is.

Yes, when someone without any buffs and with no idea how to actually PK uses it, it works against them. Not knowing how to use something isn't a good argument for "it's not very good," it's like saying Ryu's fireballs suck because your opponent jumps over them and you get killed.