Shattered Kingdoms

I believe this is at the base level if you don't believe so reasoning would be nice.

I'm really shocked at how many people can't or won't look beyond the "oh no it is a wimp" to see how much more they gain. Now if you give tribunals a boost rather then culling the cabals a bit, it will effectively be impossible to be competitive and independent. Not only that, but being a dual member would be such a boon that even single affiliate members would suffer tactically. I have no problem with dual members being more powerful but its about how much more then the independents and single affiliated characters.

I'll grant that just buffing tribunals enough would allow them to compete for dual member loyality when forced to choose. But just adding buff after buff will lead to the problem above.

Lei Kung

I don't agree with removing the two most powerful skills/spells but I still agree with removing two. After all it isn't a penalty because they are trading those two powers to gain all the powers of being a tribunal member. It is a net gain so it isn't a penalty. Again, just buffing tribunals to make them competitive for dual member loyalties causes another problem, see my response to Achernar.

Lei Kung

Look what you are saying has been answered already. Just because you keep saying it will not make it any less wrong then it was before. Fact, tribunals will need a greater tactical draw then cabals to compete for character loyalty (assuming secret cabals, dual membership, etc.). Fact, if you boost tribunals to that point without culling cabals at all, independents are at a very significant disadvantage and single affiliates are as well. So if you don't want cabals culled you need to come up with another solution. For example, every independent gets xyz powers until they join an organization, in which they get those powers and abc powers until they become dual members at which point they only have the cabal and tribunal powers. Personally I think that would be a horrible solution but it would solve the two problems listed.

Lei Kung

I'm just responding to the point about law immunity and not getting leadership. I find this wrong for a few reasons. First, it gives away the character as a dual member. Second, by removing powers from the tribunal side rather then the cabal side, it greatly encourages that player to be loyal to the cabal. Last, assuming tribunals are given the ability to transport soldier for war, this leaves the dual members out to a degree in a war.

Lei Kung

Yes the assumption was absurd but it was only to make the example (and the example works if one is willing to accept the assumption to understand the point). I will admit I wanted to use a dramatic example but it doesn’t mean the point is invalid. I was trying to point out that there might be a solution but you don’t back track on progress. If you didn’t like my first example here is another. Automobiles are a major reason for air pollution. If we were to revert to the house and buggy it would solve that problem but just because it can doesn’t mean we should. I really don’t see the appeal, other then golden age syndrome, to give up the progress made.

Lei Kung

If the reason to nerf dual membership is to keep single membership as a valid option, then you're all just being silly.

Following your stream of logic, we should nerf single tribunal and cabal membership to leave non-membership as a viable option.

People do it anyway. If it fits with their character, they'll only join a cabal or a tribunal. Some people won't join anything at all. This donkey is dead, so stop beating at it and crying before anything's even been implemented.

Josephus has hit the nail on the head. The idea is to encourage dual membership, not scare people away from it.

Lei those "facts" you are saying have no real factual existance. How can you say it will completely make independants useless? Have you tried it yet? Oh wait it has not been implemented and thus no one has.

Also let's look at MC, they already are a cabal with law immunity and have the NPC buffs available. Are they vastly superior to every other cabal character? Are they castly superior to every non-affiliate? Not really. Looks like you have your facts all wrong.

If cabals should lose anything I would agree with 1 skill maybe to even them out with the MC, but even then how do you decide who loses what skill? I can think of different classes I would play in different cabals and the skill I would choose to lose could be very different depending on the class for some of them.

Actually, Dulrik's suggestion was to add another ability to the MC to compensate. There's no need to nerf anything at all.

First. Yes his statements are not facts but if you look around the player base at where current membership is it is a good estimation that such distribution will remain the underlying trend. That is cabal membership > tribunal membership.

Second if you look at my post the idea is to step into it gradually to work out where the most suitable point is be it two skills one skill or no skills removed from the cabal skill set, players will make the choice. The reason for doing it this way rather than give things then taking them away is to try to limit the QQ. If people dont like it they wont use it this will be a clear indication people are QQ with out all the abusive flames of I just had two cabal skill taken away from me when was this decided etc etc ...

Thirdly. If I am not mistaken MC was to be given a extra skill because the MC was to be split into cabal MC and tribunal Empire guard. The MC is not what dual membership is going to be like for the most part at least I hope not.

Jardek You have expressed your views that loss of skills. I think you would agree damage could be done to SK if dual membership was introduced poorly to the player base similar to CRS with its over night RP change. The idea is to approach the ideal position from the wimpped side rather than using the nerf bat after the has been brought in to over powered. I would rather see the idea added, in a state that is used less then built to something which is good, than see it appear all guns blazing then have everyone try to throw it out the back door like CRS or beaten to death with a nerf bat. Also remember under the current proposed idea leaders will be then at a PK disadvantage because they can not have dual membership, do we wish to hurt these people for taking a more active roll in SK by taking the mantel of leadership up.