Songs of sleep should have a willpower saving throw. After testing the songs, I was always nabbed on the *first* verse of the song. Without deafness these songs utterly destroy any enemy group.

I'm not sure why bards aren't played more often with their high value of support effects, including this one, but it is utterly insane. Any person affected by songs of sleep will have their accuracy and weapon speed utterly nerfed beyond belief *with no saving throw*, and any spellcaster affected by it will have a chance to fail their spells when cast (what is the point of songs of silence then?)

Why doesn't something this powerful have a saving throw?

As you said, Bards are REALLY unpopular as it is, I'm not sure if nerfing them will really help that along.

In all fairness, my opinion is somewhat biased since I play the bard you're all pissed off at.

I fail to see how nerfing songs of sleep by giving it a saving throw is going to make the bard class any more or any less popular than it already is.

Utterly worthless? That's so not true.

Umm its pretty much the only reason to play a bard. Persuade is damn near worthless because even level like 20 NPCs have a decent chance of resisting it at mastered, and GM NPCs resist like 90% of the time, I won't even mention players. And the rest of the songs in the bards repertuar short of songs of healing are completly useless.

Persuade is actually what I never understood, if it uses the same mechanics as charm except only usable for one command, why does it fail SO MUCH more often. A mastered charm spell will virtually never be resisted by a GM NPC thats not immune to it, and that is nowhere NEAR the case with persuade which also I might add costs a lot more mana and has the same effective casting time (lag time in its case).

Anyways lets be honest, what do bards have besides persuade, songs and tumble that is unique? Nothing I can think of. All the songs except Songs of Healing, Silence and Sleep are utterly worthless. Persuade would be nice if it wasn't resisted so damn often, and Ill give tumble that its a kickass skill.

So if you put easy saving throws on the songs (considering they aren't affected by art <I believe> and if they were bards only have 6 art and definatly don't have the extra stat points to get more if its raised), what are you left with, a rogue with no backstab or steal that can tumble? No thanks, I'll pass.