Shattered Kingdoms :: View topic - Alignment/OOC Enforcement

Phew. That was deceptively diplomatic of you.

BTW: I do tend to have a love for the superfluously redundant use of diction in wording things.

I used to respect the way Thuban worded things. Now he just sounds lame-o and like, way too conceited. I mean does anyone actually talk that way? lol

He's also basically stating that 'yeah, this mud is insanely bent towards lighties, but, hey, that's not the way -I'd- do things, despite the fact I'm a gamemaster and builder on this mud who has the ability to influence the staff but doesn't ever push it hard enough.'

Also, as a pbase. If you see someone blatantly breaking alignment or showing lack of RP. Log it and send it up. I don't care if it your best friend is doing it. We have to own up some of this responsibility ourselves. If we want this mud to continue to flourish.

Lighties caught grinding on lightie NPCs/killing them for loot will be cursed. If you don’t get caught, you’re nothing but lucky. Grey aura NPCs is another matter and depends on the concept of the individual character in my opinion. The familiarity code limits the time you may spend levelling on the same dark aura NPCs, so there are a bunch of balance issues to consider on top of the rp issue. However, that’s a real long debate and not appropriate to consider here.

I’m not getting this claim that we’re unwilling to 'lay down the law'. I am unwilling to punish anyone I don’t have solid proof of a misdoing on, but that’s not the same as refusing to punish lighties for being twits, if and when they are. Got an RP issue? Send up a log. We aren't omniscient, need a little help from the pbase.

Grey aura NPCs is another matter and depends on the concept of the individual character in my opinion.

Author:	Sinnoch [ Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:27 pm ]
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Goldlantern wrote: Phew. That was deceptively diplomatic of you. BTW: I do tend to have a love for the superfluously redundant use of diction in wording things. He's also basically stating that 'yeah, this mud is insanely bent towards lighties, but, hey, that's not the way -I'd- do things, despite the fact I'm a gamemaster and builder on this mud who has the ability to influence the staff but doesn't ever push it hard enough.' The fact of the matter is, lighties have it way too easy. I gmed a paladin in under 50 hours with rp investment. Gear was -always- super abundant. Easy to get adamantite, super-easy, great lighty-only weapons. Hell a majority of the best, on continent stuff loads west of the Tarim river. Anything that was loaded in a dangerous zone was weak to paladin spells even. And since lighties can't kill each other, they always help each other, whereas darkies don't have to - so all this equipment is way easier to get in a big horde of lighties. Sorry, but the concept that evil has to always be cutting its own throat on this mud is downright silly and you know that. Part of the problem of why lighties seem to be so neck-deep in every type of equipment comes from the lack of Roleplay restriction on the Light Aura as a whole. I seldom here that imms punish lighties for killing gray auras for leveling or possessing equipment even. I was a principled paladin murdering the hell out of mobile and players (even invis at points) and still, not one single thing was done. But, I play a darkie and dominate 1 person and drag him to a nation he's outlawed in (the one I happened to live in) to serve his sentence and kapow - I'm laden neck deep in tells from imms. Is that to say the immortals have a bias against players? No, not really, but I firmly believe certain factions/alignments are, for whatever reason, closely watched as opposed to others. Should the staff always be meddling with things and try to dictate rp? No, of course not, but they need to set a standard for roleplay and stop leaving this 'interpretive' alignment stuff up for any jackass who can find enough circular reasoning to prop up their bs roleplay to do whatever they feel like in game. This clearer defining of what an alignment should not be doing will add balance to the game and make it seem like darkies get such a big disadvantage (IE harshly punishing lighties who kill first, ask questions later, or kill gray aura mobiles for equipment or levelling, like in the old days, etc). That's why it may appear that darkies get such a huge shaft in levelling, but honestly, back in the day, you'd be cursed for killing gray aura mobiles to level off of (unless they were grouped with darkies) or just random mobiles with no reason other than to grind levels (ie running around torrum as a principled fist killing the gray/dark aura mobiles was frowned upon, so was just killing the citizens of teron, etc). Lighties were not supposed to kill. Ever since the hardass policing of proper alignment RP has gone away, RP is really a joke here. With no firm RP guidelines, there is no equipment restriction on the characters from the RP side. Hence, an imbalance occurs further. We have to remember, this game was designed for RP to be super-critical, that's why necromancers used to be worth playing - they had few friends, but were powerful. That's why the paladin has call armor, etc, etc etc. When you knock out that RP game balance, things suffer. -However- I will say that I am fairly sure they are aware of the problem and are taking steps to correct it. Just, as with anything, it takes time for it to become effective. Though, I'm a bit disappointed in Thuban's response.

Author:	Muktar [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:02 am ]
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Yeah, players are pampered too much. I also agree with Sinnoch that as long as alignments are coyly worded, players will 'create' scenarios to justify their breaking of alignment. Now, I have to say this about lightie grinding. Sometimes the player doesn't know who is what aura. It is pretty easy to tell a lightie from graybie/darkie. It isn't that easy to tell the difference between graybie/darkie at times. I say there should RP moderators that can hand out small curses for breaking of alignment, lack of RP, etc. If something major happens, let them send it up higher. Also, as a pbase. If you see someone blatantly breaking alignment or showing lack of RP. Log it and send it up. I don't care if it your best friend is doing it. We have to own up some of this responsibility ourselves. If we want this mud to continue to flourish. We cannot just sit by and let these <insert expletive> continue to bring down this game.

Author:	Thuban(2008) [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:34 am ]
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stratford wrote: I used to respect the way Thuban worded things. Now he just sounds lame-o and like, way too conceited. I mean does anyone actually talk that way? lol Yeah, I actually kinda do. And I'm well aware that I tend to err on the side of Maximum Verbosity. My goal isn't to sound pretentious, it's just to be as specific with my wording as possible, in an attempt to minimize ambiguity. And yes, I'm also well aware that if nobody understands WTF I'm talking about it defeats that purpose - but hey, all I can do is try. :/ Sinnoch wrote: He's also basically stating that 'yeah, this mud is insanely bent towards lighties, but, hey, that's not the way -I'd- do things, despite the fact I'm a gamemaster and builder on this mud who has the ability to influence the staff but doesn't ever push it hard enough.' Right.. the key word here is "influence." I'm not a dictator, and my name isn't Dulrik; it isn't my job - or even my place - to tell everyone else up here how they can or can't do things, it's just to make the most compelling arguments I can when I feel like something's out of whack. Among many, many other things. Muktar wrote: Also, as a pbase. If you see someone blatantly breaking alignment or showing lack of RP. Log it and send it up. I don't care if it your best friend is doing it. We have to own up some of this responsibility ourselves. If we want this mud to continue to flourish. Hear, hear. Stereotypes about Sadistic IMMs vs. Lazy IMMs aside, I can tell you guys on a personal level that I for one would rather be spending less time and energy on policing SK and more on adding and improving content, on contriving storylines big and small for people to enjoy, et cetera. And I know you guys log in to have fun playing your characters, not to drag yourself back OOC every time you see something dubious. Basically, nobody wants to deal with this garbage. And as Sinnoch said, "as with anything, it takes time for it to become effective." But it has to be done. You try to do your part, we'll try to do ours. p.s. On the other side of the coin, if you're a player who prefers light-auraed characters, and you're reading this thread thinking "this is all sanctimonious b.s.; it's all but impossible to gain XP at [insert level range] without murdering inoffensive citizen NPCs in a way that compromises my RP!" - please drop one of us a line. It never hurts to have this kind of input when planning future roleplay events, or as builders designing new content.

Author:	Sinnoch [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:00 am ]
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Just to clarify, I wasn't calling any of the staff lazy. They do a lot of work (and are always behind due to that amount of work), but I was commenting on the lack of willingness of this incarnation of staff to lay down the law when it's needed. Now, I'm not one for being an Alshain (teehee -- remember the forum nazi days there, my aussie nemesis?) but there comes a time when you (staff) needs to set a precedence when things have gone askew. If you can't honestly see what is wrong and why it is degenerating the entire time - I don't know what to say. The #1 enemy to this game is OOCness and complete disregard for RP. This reminds me of when I whined like a stuck pig as adept leader oocly because I refused to compromise my character icly. I didn't resort to cheating by having friends roll characters and power leveling them, or by compromising my character -- instead, I bitched like no other and stepped down to show I wasn't just trying to buff myself, but I believed in this. I can correlate this to how every part of this game is crumbling slowly. My unwillingness to do the things to make the cabal an ooc success is what has gone missing from Sk overall. I think very few people adhere to this, among them (that I can think of off hand) Morovik, Gremlin, Jada, Malhavoc, GoldLantern, Johnix, and a few others - but amongst the majority of the playerbase, it is gone. I'm not going to put words in people's mouths, but I think the game has progressively gotten less enjoyable for us due to it as well. Light aura no longer follows a decent alignment guideline, and thusly, they have gained a huge advantage in terms of leveling and equipment. What used to be considered taboo (murder for equipment, killing innocent grays) is now common place. Why? Lack of respect for RP. The overall decline of quality cabal RP (this might be 'opinion' but it's gotten much rarer since the 'golden days', and that's not me remembering it incorrectly) due to the peso-esque scenarios that occur daily. The complete disregard for ic knowledge when players like fepel totally run an ooc board on sklogs.com and then use that information icly with no explanation behind it. All these things devolve the game and cause massive problems. Why? Because this game is completely based around RP. Regardless of tactics or whatever new/annoying/great/shiny/dim/etc code Dulrik tosses out there -- this is a game about roleplaying and things are coded with RP in mind, areas are build with RP in mind, and everything here is balanced according to the dictates of general RP. When that is no longer the primary aim -- expect [REDACTED] to break. I'm not pulling rats out of my [REDACTED] either, I can probably graph the correlation with some econometrics if I had some sampling data from the past and compare it to now. I can see the pattern and I wish others would as well. The reason I pressure the staff to do things is because they are the only ones I can. They gave an obligation to better the game and they obviously give enough of a damn to not-play the game to make it better. That's more than most players are ever willing (you know, most players just want the 'power' that goes along with being an imm and feel 'special' because they get to make a fun game into a chore - being an imm is just bleh, I can imagine here it's even worse than what I've experienced) to do, and besides, they have the power to influence the game more heavily than players with an easier time. As each day passes, I feel more and more like Salak. <RULES VIOLATION REMOVED>

Author:	Salandarin [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:18 am ]
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How does every thread turn into a speech from Sinnoch about the evils of OOC? Hell, this started as a request to make elite gear suck less, and here we are.

Shattered Kingdoms https://shatteredkingdoms.org/forums/

Alignment/OOC Enforcement https://shatteredkingdoms.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15937	Page 1 of 3

Author:	wortsenawl [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:44 am ]
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Salandarin, while you are quite correct in your statement, Sinnoch does raise important (and well founded) points. I do read a great deal of the OOC posts on the 'other site' (partly to moderate, partly out of curiousity), but I keep that knowledge gained out of my SK characters mind. However, I do find it extremely annoying to recieve tells in game asking me to locate xxx from a character who I know cannot possibly have any knowledge of said item. I normally say "Certainly, if you can tell me who gave you knowledge of such a great artifact." Of course, you generally get some b.s. reply, but such a response only means the next time they want something, they go to another player who will just do as asked without a thought of how this 'kid' could know of such things.

Author:	Sinnoch [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:37 pm ]
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Nashira wrote: Lighties caught grinding on lightie NPCs/killing them for loot will be cursed. If you don’t get caught, you’re nothing but lucky. Grey aura NPCs is another matter and depends on the concept of the individual character in my opinion. The familiarity code limits the time you may spend levelling on the same dark aura NPCs, so there are a bunch of balance issues to consider on top of the rp issue. However, that’s a real long debate and not appropriate to consider here. Then I recommend another thread be started. However, let me just say this: Quote: I’m not getting this claim that we’re unwilling to 'lay down the law'. I am unwilling to punish anyone I don’t have solid proof of a misdoing on, but that’s not the same as refusing to punish lighties for being twits, if and when they are. Got an RP issue? Send up a log. We aren't omniscient, need a little help from the pbase. This is why I say you're 'unwilling to lay down the law': Nashira wrote: Grey aura NPCs is another matter and depends on the concept of the individual character in my opinion. I say: no. Absolutely not. It doesn't. There needs to be far, far less gray area when it comes to lighties. You're scrupulous, you kill an innocent town citizen greybie in Teron to level off of -- boom, cursed 1 level per mobile. You're principled member of the FIST and you go into Teron and kill a greybie -- boom, kicked out of the cabal (by immortal uninduction) and the leaders of the cabal are cursed back 1 level. You're a member of the Hammer and you run away from a siege on Exile -- boom, you get tarnished and if you're a leader, deflagged, and probably cursed too. I can send you logs, but if you don't subscribe to this theory -- well, what point is it? -My- point is that you don't see these as game destroying offenses, when before you played (and you can confirm this with Algorab even) behavior like this was scorned and dealt with. Even the concept of an ooc hookup was punished with deletion. There are logs, still, of Reina punishing peso-esque behavior (where high level cabal characters help out specific player's newbies but ignore other's for the purposes of power leveling and bringing them oocly into the cabal through a false ic facade). Why do I use Reina? Because he was a very visible immortal, Alshain was much the similar way but a bit more quiet about it. I know this staff hates to police the players, but you -have- to. Sk is different due to RP enforcement, but you -have- to enforce that. You don't need to spam punish based upon unfound evience, but you DO need to punish for offenses and stop leaving alignment interpretation up for grabs. There's a reason lighties get a ton of perks on this mud (request, more nations, etc) and that's because of the severe restrictions placed upon the two alignments. Principles are not supposed to use the kill order unless it's to save someone or against evil. Scrupulous' are the same. THE SAME. The way they go about it is different. While a principled person might try to reason with evil a bit first, the scrupulous will resort to violence quicker. HOWEVER THAT DOES NOT GIVE HIM CYRA-CARD-BLANCHE FOR MURDERING OTHER LIGHTIES AND/OR GREYBIES BECAUSE HE FELT LIKE IT. This -includes- grey mobiles who carry equipment. No, it is -UNACCEPTABLE- for light auras to murder the head of the torrum, or to kill Saisua, etc. etc. You imms need to start hammering that into people's heads. If you don't see why this is -- I don't know what to say. I really don't. Then there really is no difference between good and evil here when it comes to RP. It's disgusting and it needs to stop. The very same reasons lighties should be restricted in this way are the very same reason as to what makes an evil alignment evil. Oh, and graybies shouldn't go around murdering people the same. Even an anarchist. They are a bit harder to define, but as a general rule of them, if they're blood thirsty then they = evil. Not grey. Too many people abuse this as well to get out of being speared/holy worded. This is what I mean about staff unwilling to do what is required for the good of the game. You can build all the areas that you want, but they mean literally dick when it comes to the quality of the RP on this mud compared to what it used to be. EDIT: One last note: alignment breaking is NOT an ic issue. It should not, nor will it ever, be dealt with ICly. It is an OOC issue. The player and character are bound by abiding by the alignment rules within their roleplay. They are -NOT PERMITTED- by helpfile and rules to breach, at any time, their alignment. Should they be found to be breaching their alignment, they and those who aid or consort with them, need to be punished in an ooc manner by which results in a serious 'sting' to the player to warn them never to do it again. The examples I posted above are alignment breakers, not IC violations that can be dealt with ICly. Think of it the same as me handing you a gun and telling you to shoot a baby in the face. Would you? No. Nor would a lightie or even a greybie. Use that as your litmus test.

Author:	Tinder [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:30 pm ]
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Sinnoch, I hate to agree with you, but as somebody who has spent their entire career on SK as a head-down kind of player. No IMs no PMs, no nothing. I have to agree. You can achieve nothing on this mud unless you are a 'player'. Nothing. I hate OOC. This mud is out of control (ooc?) which is why the last four people I have tried to bring to here have just blown it off after a couple of days. There is no RP here any more. Just the illusion of RP, and it is sad that nearly everybody gets so hyped up defending it. This is the reason I have not bothered posting here in the five years I have been playing, it is practically impossible to get a sensible reply. I ask anybody to take a step back from this forum and read it for what it is. It will make you laugh, yes, but sadly it will also make you cringe away from the game. It is also why this game with never again get more than 30ish players online at one time. Dulrik, give it up. This game is doomed. You have sown the seeds of it yourself. Circle-jerking does ruile the day. I hate to say this as I have had such great RP on SK, but it is so few and far between as to be worthless, and let it be known that I am the kind of person who looks for RP. So yes. 'flame' me if you will, say this, say that. But the fact is. I am the kind of kind of person SK needs, the kind of person who makes up the numbers. Some of you will probably tell me to feck off, and tell me that SK doesn't need people like me at all. And that's why SK is slowly dying. This game is going to hell. It's days are numbered, and it's really sad.

Author:	Muktar [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:48 pm ]
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Actually, I only have to disagree with you slightly, tinder. I do agree with everything the Sinnoch said. I disagree that you can't be anything if you don't have the OOC hookups. I would be glad to say that I have been able to do just fine without using them. My first char was the leader of a trib and my second char was the leader of a religion. I do have to admit that it is hard, though.

Author:	ObjectivistActivist [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:24 pm ]
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This thread has gotten more or less totally off topic, and the posts that are diverging from the intended topic should probably be split off and made into their own thread. That will, of course, include this one. As a player who organized a fairly large RP event in the recent past, I will say that it is not absolutely required to have OOC hookups to get done. In some cases, including in the RP event in question, the OOC hookup crowd actually presents an obstacle to getting some people involved. Now, if it only affected those players and their characters, fine, they're just costing themselves opportunities. It does, however, become a problem when it costs other players opportunities that they may want to take advantage of and get involved with whatever happens to be going on. For anyone running into such situations, I would suggest logs sent to IMMs since acting in that fashion is literally a deteriment to the game. Can it be easier to get things done if you're spamming "COM JOIN MAI GRUPS" over YIM, forums, and any other medium that you can conceive of Peso-style? Yes. Is that a deterent to the hard-won IC richness of SK? Yes. However, it's not something the IMMs can fix. They can punish it as they see it, and I happen to know for a fact that they do when proof is provided to them of it happening. I also happen to know that RP breaches beyond alignment breaches are punished when proof is provided. However, again, all that is a band-aid solution at best, and a very minimal deterent at worst (to those for whom a 1 lvl curse is essentially a joke). Ultimately, it is a problem with player attitude and approach to the game. The IMMs cannot get inside a player's head and make them realize that doing things based on OOC motivation is wrong and abandons the spirit of a role playing game entirely. Does this mean that it's inappropriate at all times to talk to people OOCly? No. It's perfectly acceptable to have associations with people outside of the game. It's a question of rationally seperating IC and OOC, and the failure to do so is the failure of players, not staff. It's a problem that needs to be addressed by the people doing it, by having them step back and look accurately at what they're doing and then deciding to stop doing it. Sinnoch, I personally suggest you send those logs you have in to the IMM staff. Send them to IMMs other than Nashira if you don't trust her interpretation of how things should be. Not all of the IMMs have the same views of the same things, and if one IMM isn't handling things to your satisfaction, try another one. If you still aren't getting what you think is right out of the situation, then maybe it's time to question whether what you want is actually right or not. If, after that, you're still convinced that something wrong is going on, keep trying all the way up the IMM chain (or across the IMM board, which may be a more appropriate metaphor). I offer the same suggestion to anyone who thinks there's something wrong. More than one staff member has said that all that is needed for action to be taken against someone who is not RPing properly (be it alignment, faction vows, mutliplaying, or some other binding RP scenario) is for proof of that breach to be provided. This IMM staff is not unwilling to act, but they are unwilling to act without proof. Yes, policing needs to be done, but the IMMs can't be everywhere all the time. By the same token, the mere suggestion of cheating or inappropriate RP should be cause for investigation by IMM staff. If a log cannot (as opposed to will not) be provided, then the character under suspicion should be looked at closely for a period until such time as either the alleged behavior is witnessed or the suspicion is cleared. The staff has the ability to snoop without their presence being known by the players in question, and they should be using it when a question of player integrity arises. This does happen, I presume, if not necessarily to the extent that it should. Is it as fun or interesting as adding content to the game world? No, but it is just as important, and it's what will make the content you do add more appreciated in the long run. At any rate, /rant.

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