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Adder wrote:

Is it a straight 50% more damage modifier when resting?

If so, we could remove that and instead make all attacks more likely to land. The basher and the bashed would both gain a negative modifier to dodging, shield blocking, parrying, and reflex saves.

That way attacks don't magically do any more damage, but they do have a greater likelihood to hit.

I'm reviewing the code and I think that this extra damage affect was not actually intentional. I'm pretty sure the point was for people to take more damage on the opening attack (aka not in position fighting) and even more if they were asleep at the start of the battle. It seems likely to me that somebody thought bash should make you position resting without considering the ramifications of that change. (While that may have been me, I don't think it was. There were a lot of strange changes to the code in the pre-alpha days before I got involved.)

I don't have any proposed changes for this right now. It would be a big change in the way combat works. I kind of like less damage and just have it be a better chance to hit. Also, people should still get extra damage on an opening attack.

Author:	Adder [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Bash Changes
Dulrik wrote: Adder wrote: Is it a straight 50% more damage modifier when resting? If so, we could remove that and instead make all attacks more likely to land. The basher and the bashed would both gain a negative modifier to dodging, shield blocking, parrying, and reflex saves. That way attacks don't magically do any more damage, but they do have a greater likelihood to hit. I'm reviewing the code and I think that this extra damage affect was not actually intentional. I'm pretty sure the point was for people to take more damage on the opening attack (aka not in position fighting) and even more if they were asleep at the start of the battle. It seems likely to me that somebody thought bash should make you position resting without considering the ramifications of that change. (While that may have been me, I don't think it was. There were a lot of strange changes to the code in the pre-alpha days before I got involved.) I don't have any proposed changes for this right now. It would be a big change in the way combat works. I kind of like less damage and just have it be a better chance to hit. Also, people should still get extra damage on an opening attack. Discuss. I never knew about the fact that being bashed causes you to receive 50% more damage, so this completely changes the way I look at mercs and barbs, too. The penalties to being bashed, or succeeding at a bash (these are very rough, look at them in a general sense): -small penalty to dodging -small penalty to shield blocking -moderate penalty to parry -small penalty to reflex saves Probable consequences of this: -Mercs, barbs and pets all do less damage on average. -Casters get slightly stronger because their pets tend to live longer. -People will be less likely to use bash senselessly in PK. There are many more consequences, but I'm still trying to get my head around them. Vote yes if you agree with the spirit of my idea. Details (amount of and which penalties to apply) can be changed.

Author:	One Valiant Truth [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:
Aye.

Author:	Goldlantern [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:
I would switch up dodging and parrying. moderate penalty to dodge, small to parrying. You're on the ground, but clearly you can still move your weapon and shield about. All you can do once you're on the ground however, is roll. You can't duck, jump, or otherwise evade blows by anything other than a quick headturn or roll. Same for reflex. I also don't think people will use bash less senselessly AS LONG AS IT REMAINS ONE OF THE ONLY WAYS TO KEEP A PERSON FROM FLEEING. EDIT: With the loss of the 50% extra damage from a merc or barb, I don't think bash needs a FURTHER wimp to raise the likelihood of the basher's being hit.

Author:	Muktar [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:
I was thinking that there should be a command (which takes PE) to stand up after a bash/trip. This should not be automatically successful and there are other things that happen: moderate penalty to dodge, parry, shield block, and reflexes. Which shows that if you are getting up, you can't do it as well. Then let bards use tumble to get up, for the tumble cost. It should be a different command for other classes. Kip up, or something.

Author:	Jardek [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:
So bash would work the same but would stop causing more damage to you from attacks while bashed? At the same time, bash would have an increased chance of connecting. Sounds good to me.

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Bash Changes https://shatteredkingdoms.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=16493	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Pushing40 [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:
The bashee should not get a higher chance to hit the basher. He just got knocked for a loop and might be seeing stars. I think the bashee could take slightly higher damage while down, especially at first, because of the pseudo-defenseless nature of the event, but not a 50% increase. Dodge should be wholly eliminated during the first round of being bashed and severely reduced during the remainder. Small to medium reduction in shield block and parry. And I don't know enough about reflex to venture an opinion. As I said earlier, the basher shouldn't be penalized against the bashee due to the highly advantageous position the basher is in. However, the bashee's companions should gain a bonus on chance to hit until the basher fully regains a proper stance. I must say I strongly believe basher lag is too long compared to bashee lag. The basher should be able to do other things sooner than the current set-up. As an aside, there's definitely a benefit to being a bashee unless it's been fixed. Get bashed or tripped right before a tick and get resting hp/me/mv gains. I didn't vote because I can't vote yes AND no at the same time.

Author:	Adder [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: As an aside, there's definitely a benefit to being a bashee unless it's been fixed. Get bashed or tripped right before a tick and get resting hp/me/mv gains. Somehow suffering 50% more damage doesn't seem quite worth that. Any fight that's turned because of a lucky tick while bashed wouldn't have even been that close without the 50% bonus. Quote: I also don't think people will use bash less senselessly AS LONG AS IT REMAINS ONE OF THE ONLY WAYS TO KEEP A PERSON FROM FLEEING. When I said "senselessly" i didn't mean that I thought people wouldn't use it. I was making a jab at those people who bash instinctively even when they have no idea what's going on in a fight. Suffering some sort of penalty further encourages them to take stock of their situation and think about their actions versus just spamming bash until one side wins.

Author:	Muktar [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:
Seriously though, how about a skill that can help you roll out of a bash/trip. Tumble for bards and a weaker version for everyone else.

Author:	Adder [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:
Muktar wrote: Seriously though, how about a skill that can help you roll out of a bash/trip. Tumble for bards and a weaker version for everyone else. People need to die. That's what bash does like no other skill or spell in the game will do. At any rate, that's off topic anyways. I'd like to keep this thread solely focused on bash changes, since it's a huge deal.

Author:	Enishi [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:
Pushing40 wrote: I must say I strongly believe basher lag is too long compared to bashee lag. The basher should be able to do other things sooner than the current set-up. That eliminates the entire point of trip. You're not really supposed to be able to do anything while they're down when you're bashing. Its strength is that it's generally easier to land and hits flying opponents... whereas trip is riskier and can be used less often, but yields greater advantages. That you get out of it slightly earlier to get another bash chance is good enough imo.

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