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Transforming the Necromancer class
https://shatteredkingdoms.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17481		 Page 1 of 7
Author:  sleeper [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Transforming the Necromancer class
I had a long chat with a friend about the issue with animates. While I still would prefer to leave necros untouched, I would maintain that if they must be changed, they must be massively changed. While I won't dive into details, if the issue with animates got changed, there is still another gaping hole a necromancer can take advantage of that would allow them to be equally, if not moreso, devastating. And if that got closed, what else would a person who knew this game be able to do with a necro that I can't imagine?

Here's a list of proposed changes. Again, I point out that this is only if the necromancer must be changed. (If I missed something, please feel free to bring it up... It's been a while since I've really played a necro).

Quote:
1) Holy word
---- Nerf the damage received to both the necromancer and his undead.
---- Nerf, or even remove, the chance a holy word will cancel the undead. (Does a holy word cancel a charm person/elemental? If so, leave the chance. If not, remove it.)

2) BoG
---- The damage on a BoG should be nerfed.
---- The nimbus affect needs to be tweaked/removed.

3) Leave the spell set for a necromancer alone. I could see slight buffs in the future, but that's it. (I would happily see a nerf to e-drain which will likely get a lot of use if this changeset was implemented.)

4) Animate/Control Undead
---- A necromancer should only be allowed 1 or two animates at a time. Concentration should be an issue, to coincide with the below reason.
---- A necromancer should only be allowed to control 1 or two undead at a time.
---- A necromancer should never be able to have more than any combination of 3 from above.

5) Undead strength: A necromancer should be able to obtain no combination of animates via wands/scrolls (so they might have to have a concentration cost) that would allow them to do more damage then a good warlock with a fire elemental or a good sorc with 2 charm persons. This will likely require undoing some of the nerfs controls got a while back, and this will definitely mean buffing the animates. I suggest a slightly longer timer for wraiths and a slight increase in hp to all undead.


Again, let me point out that these should happen only if necros must be tweaked, because if you only change animate undead, you will not get to the heart of the problem. With that said, what is the heart of the problem? In short, I'd argue that a necromancer has the ability to control a formidable force. Their balancing disadvantage is that they also can loose that force in a fraction of the time, and a smart character has options to counter the necromancer. Trust me, I've done it. It's was a f'ing difficult fight, but it was do-able. Nerfing only one aspect of a necro fails to account for the variety of other options they have at their disposable and you'll only have this discussion 6 months later. (I don't know about you, I seem to see a nerf thread on necros every 6 months since I first started playing this game 5 years ago.)

These changes should put necros on par with most of the classes. They still might be a bit too uber (or maybe, depending on how hard D hits them, too nerfed), but after a while it should put them relatively balanced to other classes. I certainly would love to still see them as the uber PK class, but not like they are now. As much as I would love to see them unchanged, if they get tweaked, they need to be largely redone from the ground up.

sleeper

[alshain: topic title fixed]
Author:  Jardek [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
I hate necromacers.

Do they hit you with maces made from the bones of the unliving?
Author:  Chem [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
And Wall of Zombies added to their spell list!
Author:  Dulrik [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Before this thread gets rolling, I thought I'd straight out say that you can now only use a wand or scroll to create a single animated dead at a time. Necros don't have any additional limitations on their undead, but if they want one from an item, it has to be the first one they create.
Author:  Konrin [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't like this changes a.

And b....D, sorry, but you're wrong. wands can be used to create however many undead you want.
Author:  Dulrik [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Have you tried that in the last hour?
Author:  Konrin [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Fair enough. Now can you please get rid of the duration on animates since we can't have huge armies even through items?
Author:  sleeper [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Dulrik, before you go and completely destroy this thread, at least listen to the arguments presented. If you wish, I can be very detailed in a different way a necromancer can be as equally powerful... Patching the problem really won't work. Necros are like a legacy system. You can try to patch it to keep it working, but it's going to bite you in the [REDACTED] before long.

I strongly suggest you at least see where this goes and consider performing a massive change.

sleeper
Author:  Pushing40 [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Nec is a very polar class to play. If someone has weak-to-moderate understanding, the nec will die all the time. If someone has strong understanding, the nec will be very hard to defeat. At least that's my view of the class. I honestly don't know how to align it with other classes. Aligning it with the new or average player would make it far too buff for the top-flight player. Aligning it with the top-flight player would make it unplayable for the new or average player. Therein lies the conundrum in my opinion.
Author:  Konrin [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Pushing40 wrote:
Nec is a very polar class to play. If someone has weak-to-moderate understanding, the nec will die all the time. If someone has strong understanding, the nec will be very hard to defeat. At least that's my view of the class. I honestly don't know how to align it with other classes. Aligning it with the new or average player would make it far too buff for the top-flight player. Aligning it with the top-flight player would make it unplayable for the new or average player. Therein lies the conundrum in my opinion.


I must concur that this is where we are right now, and I don't really know if we -need- to fix it. Just say that the necromancer is an 'advanced' class or something. It's fine in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing. As a first class....it's very very discouraged.

D's new change is fine, I approve, it stops people from abusing animate. The number of animates that necros can have otherwise is really quite limited. My halfling can hold 1 control, 2 animates and 2 detects at once and still FoD...anything beyond that doesn't work. Can I walk around with 10 undead? Sure, but if I get taunted I lose some, if I get hurt beyond that, I lose them all.
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