Shattered Kingdoms

I think it's about time for another discussion of the honor of hellions. Some people think that it doesn't mean jack [REDACTED] and that they can do whatever the hell they want. Some people think that hellions should be paladins with cleave, dominate, and no sanc. I think that hellions should want to be honorable, or at least want to think that they are honorable, but still be willing to exploit any loopholes that they can find. To quote the canon example, if a hellion says he won't hit you with his sword, get ready to dodge his axe.

To quote the Hellions' helpfile:



That's how they're "supposed to" be played.

To expand on that concept...

Deceit is simply another form of lying. Why would someone take a hellion seriously, respecting their oath if they had no reason to believe that the hellion respects their own oath? If they're so intellectually and physically weak that they have to resort to deceit to honor their own oaths, what value do they have to their own god, who DEMANDS strength?

What makes them different than any other high-powered, slippery-tongued rogue?

The Hellion who refuses to honor the spirit of his word as well as the letter of their own oath is little more than a lawyer, and we all know how much "respect" a lawyer is due. Getting a reputation as a lawyer isn't going to help the hellion's rep.

I realize there's a thought process behind this that says that if a hellion doesn't have the ability to deceive people, they're just paladins with somewhat different abilities, but RP'wise, that's clearly wrong. It doesn't stop them from going out and conquering a nation, behaving as tyrants to the people they've conquered and promising them whatever meager rewards they think their victims are due.

This gives them a limited number of reasons to take oaths, certainly, but that gives them even more reason to take it seriously when they do.

After I've read the Hellion code and such, I've envisioned Hellions as a Dark Knight. A person who will not lie and demands respect. Basically, it's a person who's strength is fearsome enough that it says Respect me, or die. Where Paladin's protect the weak, Hellion's conquer them. They really have no reason to lie or twist words as if you can't just outright take what you want, then lying and deceit are tools of the weak, those who don't have enough power to take what they want. It even says that in the code. I see a Hellion being above a lawyer type character...

I envision a Hellion as a strong, honorable foe. One that lets you know he's coming, he'll give you a forewarning saying "I'm coming to raid your city at the crack of dawn. I suggest you be at your best before the morning light breaks over the horizon." And such. And they treat everyone that way. Everyone should receive a challenge from a Hellion before they attack, whether it be in the form of a direct challenge, or in the form of "Stop pestering me or you die." Something like that. People nowadays are playing Hellions as they're diabolics, running around twisting the code to how they see fit just so they can attack people without consequences and try to justify it. That's just my two cents.

There's power in being known as honorable. Ideally, hellions want people to submit and serve them, not run away at the first opportunity. That requires a measure of trust in the hellion, which they should attempt to inspire.

Obvious double-dealing, like the OP's example of using an axe after promising not to use a sword, strikes me as inappropriate. Not only doesn't it inspire trust, it's a silly oath to take in the first place. Hellions should only make promises that increase their power, then keep them. It might be fun to kill the occasional peasant, but if promising not to kill peasants without cause gets the whole village to serve you, it's worth it. Loopholes, like "without cause", are just to make sure the oath can't be twisted to decrease the hellion's power.

Characters that believe deceit is a better weapon than a good reputation should be looking to Thuban, not the hellion code. At the same time, hellion honor is still self-seeking, a hundred miles from the paladin code.

I have a strange feeling this topic is about my hellion's RP. Little known fact, I got PAR by RPing a hellion with alot of people who had PAR that hate the way I RP.

PAR says little about someone's ability to RP a character.
What PAR states is that he who has it can RP above average, and make people interact.
RPing a character means consistency and keeping to the concept. If it's a lawful character, even more so.
Personally I think PAR just means 'this character has been around for long' but that's fine with me, and not the topic of this discussion.

Hellions can be the dark knights as kin suggested, though then the problem comes with their skillset. Hide and sneak sort of suggest scoundrel/rogue instead of honorable knight. Solution: Don't train/use them.

My concept of a hellion has always been the man who will do everything to win a battle short of fleeing. He will fight dirty, he will try to get an advantage on you by blinding you, he will fight you when you're unarmed, but he won't run once he's in the fight. A hellion will pick his battles carefully to ensure that he will win and thus prove his strength, not engage in guirella warfare of run hide cleave run.
In my mind hellions will not lie. They will simply give out whatever real information can be used to twist the truth to their benefit, and if confronted with it will say 'I did not say I would not attack. I simply said I was not interested in attacking.'

In my mind hellions do not opt to inspire trust. Only loyalty at the pain of death or worse, and confidence that this knight is strong enough to fulfill the goals of his followers, and if he said he would, he will.
Hellions, like paladins, should be lawful to a fault, criticizing or even straight-out not tolerating fickle or chaotic personalities in their group unless they do exactly what is asked of them. Hellions just like paladins represent their gods in all their actions. If a hellion of ain lies, Ain would lie. If a hellion of sargas flees a battle, sargas would flee a battle, and so on.

This is just how I see hellions, though. Along with paladins, they're my 2 favorite classes in an RPG.

Why does everything have to be about you?

Barring that small exception, I agree with Erevan.

No need for twisting any truths, IMO. Ask and a hellion will tell you. Because what in the hell does he have to lose?

Are you new to the mud?

It totally is all about him. You'll see.

Also, I am not likely to ever play a paladin or hellion in SK seriously, as I expect these classes to be heavily policed and/or guided by their gods.

Since they are the mirror of their deity in the mortal realm, when they slip, their god should readily punish them, something which does not occur, allowing hellions and paladins to run amok, at times.
Of course, this would be nigh-impossible to do in SK, policing a class 24/7, so don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting something like that should happen. Just that, without it, my interest to play one is greatly reduced.