Shattered Kingdoms :: View topic - Balancing Necromancers: List your ideas!

If you can find me a log of a single character with the combined tankability/damage to eat through two wraiths faster than six furied wraiths with decent subtybe weapons can kill him, I'd be surprised.

Also I won't begin to talk about buffs on the PC versus buffs on the wraith, but safe to say I think haste + giant strength on the wraiths would tip the scale even further in their advantage, even if you then assume buffs on the PC as well.

Side note, yes I have seen logs of one person beating 6 decently armed wraiths although I'm not sure there were any on [REDACTED].

Konrin wrote:

Side note, yes I have seen logs of one person beating 6 decently armed wraiths although I'm not sure there were any on [REDACTED].

My last swash single-handedly (almost) dropped a necro (without landing a taunt) by clearing through two undead, and his uber CoN tank. If one of the worst melee classes in the game can do fairly well against a necro, then I wonder what a merc could do...

I have my own thoughts to this, but since I don't have the time for a long reply now, I'll write more later.

sleeper

Author:	Kin [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:58 am ]
Post subject:	Balancing Necromancers: List your ideas!
Okay, so I play a Necro. However, I'm not saying my class is underpowered. If anything, I'd wager they may be a bit overpowered due to the sheer number of animates you can hold. Now, if I recall correctly, D's vision for necros was a few animates complimented with some controls. However nowadays most tend to use animate necros. (The fact that under the right conditions my Delf can hold a massive 46+ animate army is a bit ridiculous, I agree.) So the question becomes this. How do we make Necros more balanced but not make it so every class can walk all over them? Now, just to elaborate, the Necro's have 90% of the mud virtually as their enemy upon creation. For this fact they DO need to be a BIT overpowered but not massively as they are now. (44 second HQ raid anyone?) Algon has suggested several times that putting animates to group only (you can't raise anymore after it's full) would be a good idea, but the problem becomes is that it would, at most, give a necro 6 usable animates. And we all know how quickly any wraith dies to a holy word, BoG, or just flat out sick damage. So to do this, they'd need a buff in my opinion. In any case, list your ideas here. What do you guys think? Do you have an idea? Leave em alone? Post your opinions and thoughts here.

Author:	Konrin [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:11 pm ]
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This is a copy + paste of a post I made on the Crucible forums. Alright having given the issue a bit of further thought I have another proposition, but it would require a much more substantial remaking of the necromancer class by both you, D, and some effort by the other immortals. It has long since been the idea of the general SK population (most of whom refuse to roll necros) that the class is overpowered. Personally, I don't think this is necessarily the case considering the number of enemies that generally come out to play when I'm out and about, but that's a separate issue. Now, my idea is multipart really and (sadly) relies on some of Algon's earlier proposals. As you've clearly stated, what I did at the Druid HQ is clearly not intended, and to be honest even with a limit of 20 it might still be possible with a bit more effort or with just recruiting another necromancer to help. However, I STRONGLY disagree with the raising of the int drain on animates as with the 25 I had, a taunt would have dropped all of them, in fact it drops most if I have anything over 12. If you raise the int cost anything over 3-6 would become nonviable while not giving anything back. First, limit -animated- undead to being part of the group only. This would essentially limit a necromancer to eight undead, two of which would have to be using bows. At the same time, take away or vastly increase the time limit that animates stick around for. ALSO on the part of the other imms there need to be easy-to-access non-steel weapons of various sizes. At the moment the only thing that's easy to get is hunting spears, but with a group configuration you'd need battles spears or some such as well. Second, fix the use of bows on undead. As it currently stands wights are able to use them with (some) accuracy however as soon as the target enters your immediate room they stop firing for no apparent reason even if they are not directly engaged in melee combat. Third, lower the mana drain on control undead. Personally I've always been intrigued by the concept of using controls rather than animates, however after playing Ilyash for over a year I've come to conclusion that it is just flat out not practical. In fact, as can be seen from the log I sent you, it's not even worth getting one to tank for you due to the mana/concentration cost. ---A note on point three is that I -believe- it is still possible to reasonably hold eight (?) animates and one control and not lose everything to one magma/taunt but the mana drain does get painful. All the same I'd much rather walk around with 2-3 controls than all the animates just because it would be more fun. Fourth, the control undead system needs to be reworked if that is to become at all viable because as it currently stands there are six* undead that are at all worth controlling, and none of those except for one-two are noticeably better than animates. "Back in the day" controls such as Varloch, the Sessprian ghouls and the Dracolich used to be feared by the mud, not a necromancer walking around with a hoard of undead large enough to kill anyone just by disconnecting them due to spam. Today, the Sessprian ghouls (I've seen two at once armed and armored getting beaten by one swashie) ....suck, Varloch is somewhat reasonable but still leaves much to be desired, and the Dracolich can no longer be controlled at all. * - some come in multiples such as the sessies. While we have seen the addition of the ice wight, for which I am grateful that is only a minor improvement to a much larger problem. What needs to happen in my mind in order to make necromancers more fun while staying just as viable in 1vs group combat and not able to kill inner guardians solo is a change in direction. - Control undead needs to have its int cost lowered by 1-2 points and its mana drain lowered severely. - Beyond that we need quite a few more undead that are controllable (I've long-since wanted a lowbie undead area for healers to level in with some uber undead tucked in there and around the outer planes but that's asking for much) and those undead need to be -noticeably- better than animates. - Give them more hp (or adamantite hide), give them actual -good-SPECIALIZES (that necros can find out) if they are mercs (at this point sessies are specced in sickle and kris and Varloch is specced in greatsword, but beyond that I'm clueless) and... - Give them more scripts that work while they are controlled. In my experience it's just more interesting to see a necromancer walk into a room followed by "a really big confusing dragon, a giant gaunt figure wielding a greatsword and an innocuous looking zombie" than by wraith x25. But in today's SK that's just not possible due in part to the concentration, in part to the mana drain and in part to the controls just flat out sucking. I realize that this was quite a bit to read and would require quite a bit of work from both you, D, and the immstaff but that's just my two cents as to what to do on the issue.

Author:	Gilgon [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:14 pm ]
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Yeah, ok. D can rehaul the entire necro class. Or he can just only let necros create animates in their own group. If that is done, necros will _still_ be more powerful than any other class in the game -> just not outrageously so as they are now.

Author:	Kin [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:
Actually, no they won't. At most it'll give a necro 6 usable wraiths or so in a group formation as the poster above said, that undead range is useless as it's bugged. 6 wraiths are weak. Their HP is crap and 1 holy word will, if not wipe them out, put them close enough to it. There are logs of people tanking 14+ wraiths easily i'm sure. If you done that, then controls would have to be more viable. I'm not saying they should be solo raiding HQ's and stuff, but they be able to hold their own in group combat. Not to mention, no necro in their right mind hides behind a wraith. 1 or 2 properly aimed BoG's and poof. You're front row. 1 holy word and you better head for the hills.

Author:	josephusmaximus3 [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:
there are also logs of 14 wraiths just steamrolling people.

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Author:	JeanValjean [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:
If you can find me a log of a single character with the combined tankability/damage to eat through two wraiths faster than six furied wraiths with decent subtybe weapons can kill him, I'd be surprised. Also I won't begin to talk about buffs on the PC versus buffs on the wraith, but safe to say I think haste + giant strength on the wraiths would tip the scale even further in their advantage, even if you then assume buffs on the PC as well.

Author:	Konrin [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:
JeanValjean wrote: If you can find me a log of a single character with the combined tankability/damage to eat through two wraiths faster than six furied wraiths with decent subtybe weapons can kill him, I'd be surprised. Also I won't begin to talk about buffs on the PC versus buffs on the wraith, but safe to say I think haste + giant strength on the wraiths would tip the scale even further in their advantage, even if you then assume buffs on the PC as well. It has been clearly stated by D before that a necromancer is supposed to be able to fight/win against multiple people. Also holy word > wraiths, BoG > Wraiths. Bow > wraiths and or necromancer. Side note, yes I have seen logs of one person beating 6 decently armed wraiths although I'm not sure there were any on [REDACTED].

Author:	sleeper [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:
Konrin wrote: Side note, yes I have seen logs of one person beating 6 decently armed wraiths although I'm not sure there were any on [REDACTED]. My last swash single-handedly (almost) dropped a necro (without landing a taunt) by clearing through two undead, and his uber CoN tank. If one of the worst melee classes in the game can do fairly well against a necro, then I wonder what a merc could do... I have my own thoughts to this, but since I don't have the time for a long reply now, I'll write more later. sleeper

Author:	Gilgon [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:
sleeper wrote: Konrin wrote: Side note, yes I have seen logs of one person beating 6 decently armed wraiths although I'm not sure there were any on [REDACTED]. My last swash single-handedly (almost) dropped a necro (without landing a taunt) by clearing through two undead, and his uber CoN tank. If one of the worst melee classes in the game can do fairly well against a necro, then I wonder what a merc could do... I have my own thoughts to this, but since I don't have the time for a long reply now, I'll write more later. sleeper Then you were fighting a huge newb. A necro who can only animate within their own group will _still_ be able to beat any class in the game 1v1.

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