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Hidden numbers
https://shatteredkingdoms.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=19220		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Rennus_Dragonsbane [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Hidden numbers
I am wondering what the players thing of the whole hidden numbers policy that has been in play since the inception of SK. While for role play reason I understand it however I think it creates a gap between the "elite" and "new" players.

I have heard players talking, IC, about having three runes of willpower or twenty runes of magic resistance. The elite or long term players know how to convert the various enchantment information into numbers. New players don’t.

People don't talk about their stats IC as much but the experienced players know how to minmax their characters without knowing how strong titanic is or how wise dim is. It only leads to the new players putting themselves on an even more uneven footing from experienced.

I doubt that this poll will change anything but I am interested in seeing if am alone in thinking this shouldn't be hidden information for accessibility of all players.
Author:  grep [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:57 am ]
Post subject: 
'Hidden' numbers are like the 'hidden' assets of a prom date.

It is more exciting when they start off as a mystery and must, through experience and tact, be revealed.

Also, hidden numbers can change more frequently without causing unrest.
Author:  Rennus_Dragonsbane [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:47 am ]
Post subject: 
grep wrote:
Also, hidden numbers can change more frequently without causing unrest.


It is my feeling that this is the main reason for hiding numbers more than any other.

As for your mystery and tact comments - This is the problem. Not all players have time or will to sit there trying to figure out the numbers and hence resort to even more OOC methods of "learning" - The various non-official SK fourms which give a more information than just stats away. Things such as paths to hidden locations, phat lewt, scripted items, full quest walk throughs, and more.

I remember going to a place where several scripts start several quests. I was trying to RP with another character there and all the character did was fire off the eight or so words (just single words like "purple" or "big", not even forming rudementary sentences) and then left. Another example was in a newbie school with another character. A non-desc/non-adj character walks in, says a keyword and walks out before the NPC even responds.
Author:  b1337 [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
I believe one of the reasons the mechanics behind certain aspects of the game are hidden, is just as much about the fact that knowing the mechanics, opens up for loads of exploitation. If I knew every mechanic behind all the spells etc. in the game, you can be damn sure I'd find a way to use that to my characters advantage.

Regarding the known OOCly/unknown ICly quest keywords. If you're the type who'll spend an hour RPing a quest while leveling, then I give you props and I think that's entirely respectable. In regards to when I level, I really really really don't feel ashamed powering through a quest I've done 100 times before. Take for example Nerina newbie quests. Non-desc/non-adjective male human going to the innkeeper and saying "Missing?" and then "Yes." and then gtfo again to come back and say "This is the inn." and then gtfo. That male human may very well be me and I'm not ashamed of it.

Regardless, the hidden numbers are hidden for a lot of, what I feel, are good reasons. And I also think the point of the mechanics being easier to change if no one actually knows the exact mechanics, is a very valid point.
Author:  Minette [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
in my early years of playing SK, i thought the numbers being hidden was kind of cool, it sets the mood/background and allows easy entry into the reinforced roleplaying environment

of course, SK is my second mud, the first being one that was also built on DIKU base, and a lot of the understanding in the numbers simply translated because they have not changed in SK

such as a max level bless would give +6 bonus (number relative) to hit roll and so on, same deal everywhere in DIKU MUDs

besides as you already say it, it is possible to find these exact numbers in other sites -- not having them in the game itself does help
Author:  Tioras [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Is knowing how to twink out your stats REALLY that difficult? I doubt knowing numbers is going to really change where you put your stat points?

I like not having numbers. Seeing "You strike a smelly male goblin for five points of damage" is at odds with the rest of the game. I'm for keeping it as it is.
Author:  Teh_Peso [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've never cared to learn SKs numbers!
Author:  juggernaut [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
All so many RPG games use numbers and still don't lose their magical feeling. I still don't agree with Dulrik wanting to hide them, but I totally respect his decision.
Author:  Rennus_Dragonsbane [ Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:54 am ]
Post subject: 
I knew the damage dealing issue would come into the conversation at some point. I am all for hiding the numbers here. Showing real numbers in combat DOES take away from the game in my opinion. Not only does it not make sense to know that your sword just hit someone for five... something, even an omnisentient gnome wouldn't be able to figure out how much a blow did in real time.

I too know Dulrik's long standing position on the hidden numbers in general - since before you even had an easy way of knowing which level in a rank you were, I think it was the price of cure poison in gold coins was your level? I am not trying to affect policy in the game and I do respect Dulrik's choice to keep the numbers hidden, it is his game after all.
Author:  Salandarin [ Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Numbers enable theorycrafting and number-crunching; fun past-times in their own right, but not fitting for a roleplay-intensive game. The myriad vagueries and mysteries allow for a pleasant level of dissent and discussion both IC and OOC, and I find the motions of discovery more rewarding than simply sitting down and charting everything out.

Additionally, numbers would shift focus from more general actions "Oh jesus he killed that guy in three rounds" to high scores such as massive crits "snap, unbuffed cleave for 600". The high score mentality makes for fun competition, but the nature of SK (having a permanent level cap) is such that the ultimate high score is reached in a very short period of time, exhausting whatever might have been interesting about it rather quickly.

I think grep's analogy is apt. The unknown is more fascinating than the known.
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