Shattered Kingdoms

Hi everyone,

Has the Elf race been left in the dark?


Stats comparison between the two races:

Both Elf and Deep-elf have the same potential maximum strength score
Elf is +1 point more dextrous than Deep-elf
Elf is +1 point more healthy than Deep-elf
Elf is significantly more charismatic by +4 than Deep-elf
Elf is greatly less wise by -2 than Deep-elf
Elf is significantly less intelligent by -3 than Deep-elf


Taking the above further into applications:

Elf being more dextrous provides minimal benefits at best as both races in PvP scene use Haste to greatly increase dexterity score
Elf being slightly more healthy provides minimal benefits at best as neither races can overcome iron weakness easily and both succumb to this weakness as melee fighters
Elf being less wise is not a significant downside as enchantments cover saves, and having a smaller mana pool is not really noticeable
Elf being more charismatic is helpful with leveling speed, affects other melee combat skills such as leadership, horsemanship and order lag, and non-combat skills such as haggle, but an Elf doesn't excel as melee fighter due to their iron vulnerability, and order lag for scores after 20+ are already within 1 round of combat (short enough)
Elf being being significantly less intelligent than Deep-elf is a glaring issue, the difference between 22 to 23 intelligence is huge, a Human Sorcerer with 23 intelligence is vastly greater in utility and expertise when it comes to holding multiple spells and still being able to function, as opposed to various 22 int races such as Sprite, Gnome, Half-elf, and Elf


Historically most competent Sorcerers for Light aura have been Human:

Now even more so, as that gap got even wider due to changes in the requirement for concentration required for trinket usage
Previously, Sprite, Gnomish, Half-elven and Elven Sorcerers could cover their 22 intelligence weakness by employing staves/scrolls/wands
Currently, besides being magical damage resistant and less likely to fall to Voodoo, Elf is a worse Sorcerer than Human, and certainly much, much worse than Deep-elf


Suggestions to bring these into balance: (As usual, not ALL of them, please take none (use your own), take one, or a few of these)

Please provide Elf with +1 intelligence score, take point(s) from other areas if deemed necessary, this grants a secondary choice for Light auras when it comes to choosing several classes
Please provide Elf with at least +1 wisdom score, and +1 in charisma score, this matches Elf with the theme of the other Shattered Kingdoms races such as Sprite, Giant, Dwarf, Gnome, and recently Deep-elf that have the potential to achieve the pinnacle in one stat
Reduce/recalibrate miscellaneous concentration requirements such as charm person, gate, petrification, sanctuary, heal, resurrection, etc., while more races would become viable, this may potentially cause even more issues - not an ideal solution
Increase the functionality of charisma to more benefits; for example, a character with higher charisma may receive more healing from a spell cast by others, and/or a character with higher charisma may have his or her pets to be more resilient or fight harder, this covers store bought, charmed, tribunal


Thematically, it is hard to think that Elf is just that much less intelligent/wise than a Deep-elf in a fantasy game, and now that Deep-elf is made to be the extreme power house of casters, please don't leave Elf in the dark!

Thank you for your consideration.

Nope, that kind of comparison you are providing is innacurate, cause you are biased as to what stat is useful and what not. Dexterity may be crap for a sorceror, but it's super-important for rogues/swasies/bards/scouts/any fighting or adventuring class

Charisma is extremely important for a bard or a swasie.

And so on. All in all, elves are very good for certain classes, as deep-elves are very good for some others.

A deep-elf mage will be much better than an elf mage at any time, and the lore of the game supports that, just like an elf bard will be awesome and a deep-elf bard... Oh, wait, you can't even have a deep-elf bard! What do you know?

So, no, your comparison is not good at all and is biased regarding certain class(es) that you have in mind.

Deep-elf is arguably the best race for Priests, Sorcs, Necro's and Warlocks. Elf is arguably the best race for... bards?

I'm not saying the two races are supposed to be balanced against one another, but if they are, then something is obviously off.

Deep-elves have this glaring weakness to BoG. Which is one of the most ridiculous spells in the game.

Anyways.

Dulrik's concentration for magical devices change was horrible, since all it did was make deep-elves /way/ better casters than all the other races.

A sprite/elf/gnome/etc sorc, is pretty much unplayable now, IMO. You have to go human or delf.

24 cha is very nice, though.

Though it's funny, looking at the stat comparison, elves actually have +1 stat point in general, if Min's numbers are right. Elves are less playable mechanically. They aren't horrible though. Mostly just when it comes to the sorcerer class, IMO. Then again, I wouldn't ever play a non-human/delf sorc now, yet I've played successful sprite (22 int) sorcs before.

In the "endgame" of SK, Dexterity points are pretty pointless, aside from races like Centaurs/Giants who have under 20 max. You want 20 dex if you are playing a class that needs it. Training it any higher is a little silly. Even for sprites, who get 25 dex. You need haste in PK, because even if you have 25 natural dex, you still need haste for the weapon speed bonus. Whereas giants never need giant strength.

On a side note, deep-elf is a horrible race for warlocks. Whereas elf is an awesome race for warlocks. Warlocks don't need that much INT, since conjure elemental is not a held spell. And who wants to play a warlock that can get BoGd.

Necros don't need that much int anymore either I don't think, since I was told they can't make more than 8 wraiths now. And if you're using controls, that spell has very little concentration, but massive mana drain.

In closing. Anything other than a delf sorc/necro/warlock/priest is literally unplayable. And not because of stats. Because of racial weaknesses. A swashie/merc/rogue/etc that can get hit by Bolt of Glory? Really? A spell with a "taunt" effect that lasts upwards of 5 minutes, does massive damage(delves are weak to light), and has a casting time of about 2/3 a round is completely debilitating to anyone who does not have very, very easy access to etherealform. Rogue gets put unplayable since they aren't as likely to have an ethereal scroll in their hand 24/7 like a priest would.

P.S. Every race isn't meant to be great, or even viable as every class. They can be other classes if you are really interested in RPing say..a Centaur Bard, but it's not mechanically smart.

P.P.S. The concentration change for devices was really bad. I imagine it is completely decimating to the 22 int races. (Don't even bring up 21 int half-elf sorcs, lololol.)

P.P.P.S. Give elves 20 wis and 25 cha.

I just remembered Ardith saying that his delves weren't even touched by BoG, so I assumed it had been nerfed somehow. If it hasn't, then I just pretty much agree with what you're saying.

Ardith tends to have better enchantments than most players. I'm not sure that's a valid point.

His deep-elf also just died for the first time in months due to BoG, and wouldn't have if he hadn't been a..deep-elf hellion. Which is vulnerable to BoG anyways. The hellion class is horrible just for that reason, IMO. They are vulnerable to BoG (which does not consider group size or anything like taunt does), and the only way to get away from BoG is ethereal (which hellions cannot do) or kill the paladin.

I would have died anyway for playing the hellion class. Sure, it made me have to stay there and die, but I would have died playing any other race, and I died to melee combat. Also, making the paladin flee from combat causes the bolt of glory effect to drop. And there is no way it lasts for up to five minutes. I have had bolt of glory wear off in the same battle, several rounds later.

I am not sure where I said deep-elves are not touched by bolt of glory. I don't think I said it all to be honest.

Also elves and deep-elves have the same constitution score, Minette.

Deep-elves are not superior casters because of the higher int score. If anything it is because of the innate bonus to take less damage from spells, light based spells excluded. This is the reason that players roll those races for spellcaster classes, because they are afraid of dying to things like voodoo. Both a human and a deep-elf sorcerer can charm 2 NPCs, and neither can zap etherealform while doing so, which is key if you encounter someone that is going to use ranged combat on you.

Syn, the magic device requiring concentration wasn't aimed at making deep-elves better, but rather so that you could not take 2 charms around and have an escape option as easy as zap etherealform wand, which was really the only advantage that deep-elves had over humans other than the magical resistance bonus.

Elf is fine in my opinion. The only thing that should be changed is that they get to be males. I have never seen anything but a female elf in the game.

Also you are ignoring the massive charisma bonus that elves have. Any class that benefits from having high charisma, an elf will do very good at. This includes: mercenary, swashbuckler, rogue, scout, bard, sorcerer, and warlock.

Deep-elf sorcerers can hold 2 charms and zap ethereal. I think you might have to sit to do it though.

Or you can just "rele char;zap self".

Human sorcerer can do the same thing. This is no advantage for a deep-elf.

Also, most of these points are reducing the argument to just their int score, and then to just the sorcerer class.

I think most of the players in the game are just too chickenshit to explore other options, other than cookie cutter combos they want to use to power game.

Bolt of glory for instance does not do as much damage as people think it does, and their only experience with it is playing a low hp base caster class, and then scream bloody murder when their sorcerer/necromancer dies to a bolt of glory spell. I think we're forgetting here that any elf that does not save against the finger of death spell dies instantly.

But mercenaries are fine for both races, they both will improve at skills faster for having higher int scores, but elf is way better due to the higher charisma score, same with swashbuckler. Rogue is deadly for any race, as is scout.

In short though, Minette, you should make a deep-elf swashbuckler. And if you want to hash it out, you know where to find me on yahoo.