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Can we show bypasses massive weapons do?
https://shatteredkingdoms.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=22256		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Minette [ Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Can we show bypasses massive weapons do?
Could you consider letting us see the weapon 'bypasses' that belong in the massive category?

Similar to the message for wild fighting: John slips past Mary's attempted parry.

There is already precedence for this in SK. For example, but may be more: wild fighting and a cabal skill. Similarly but not quite the same: ironguard, stone skin, and ethereal form.

Please! Thank you.
Author:  ninja_ardith [ Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we show bypasses massive weapons do?
Let's create spam!
Author:  skivg2011 [ Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we show bypasses massive weapons do?
ninja_ardith wrote:
Let's create spam!


I think it'd be useful for when someone is using a massive weapon to alert people to the fact this is occurring from simply a mechanics viewpoint.
Author:  ninja_ardith [ Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we show bypasses massive weapons do?
I think it is pretty obvious to tell when all the blows are landing, and the fight is over in two rounds.
Author:  Minette [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we show bypasses massive weapons do?
Dulrik, we have run some tests both on mode stun and mode kill using massive weapons.

We tested:
- 2h non-massive accurate reach
- 2h massive accurate no-reach (2h massive with no reach are generally accurate)
- 2h massive not-accurate reach (2h massive with reach are relatively not accurate)

What we have found:
- Accuracy is no longer a deciding factor in choosing weapons, massive will very likely hit (2h massive not accurate VS accurate)
- The damage increase from massive outweighs speed of having more attacks (2h massive VS non-massive)
- The small increase in speed is insignificant compared to the incredible utility of having reach (2h massive no-reach VS reach)

What does it mean:
- The traditional having more speed and accuracy weapons advantage over non-massive is greatly diminished
- The traditional having no reach, but much more speed and accuracy to compensate is greatly diminished
- The traditional choice of having a faster weapon in order to land more hits is greatly diminished, because massive bonus overcomes most opponents because they most likely have a shield and can parry anyway

Too long; didn't read:
- Choosing a massive weapon with reach has a great many utilities, and with available 'buffs', they overcome most of the former disadvantages of choosing a massive reaching weapon

Suggestions:
- Please increase the effects in disparity of weapon speed, currently a specialized 2h massive with reach and other accuracy buffs/cabal skill, plus haste, overcome the weapon speed and accuracy penalties, and therefore make 2h massive with reach an extremely competent choice every time. One might ask, "Isn't that the whole point of specialization?" Yes, it is. Remember the battle-spear, kama, and pigsticker dominations during their time?
- 2h massives with reach should receive further penalties such as having less chance to dodge due to using extremely heavy weaponry
- Other, you are smarter than me, you think of something
Author:  Baldric [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we show bypasses massive weapons do?
I agree that the massive weapons bonus is too big. I believe Dulrik stated when it was implemented that he expected to tweak it, so I hope he is open to what people have to say now that we've seen these weapons in action.

The bonus against parry/shield block for massive weapons is so huge that the accuracy stat of the weapon is completely irrelevant. A massive weapon will hit almost all the time, even if its accuracy is way below everything else when one uses the compare command. This seems to be a bit much. Functionally, the most accurate weapons in the game are things like halberds, which can't possibly have been the intention of the code change.

Weapons like bill, glaive, and halberd can get 4 attacks per round, and do insane damage per hit. They are also reaching weapons. The drawback used to be that they had poor accuracy, but now they are the most accurate weapons in the game. The only drawback to using these weapons currently is that they can be hard to come by in good materials.

I would propose that the bonus to massive weaponry get nerfed. When it was first implemented, I looked forward to seeing greatsword in action because it was already an accurate and damaging weapon. I did not expect the bonus to be so huge that things like halberd not only became viable, but completely outclassed greatsword as an option due to reach.
Author:  Edoras [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we show bypasses massive weapons do?
Algon's merc hasn't shown up a lot since the fix to left-handed characters on ranged weapons showed up: And wielding a halberd in the front row will get you straight-up wrecked unless you happen to be fighting people that output lame damage.

Are there any other characters that have actually proven that massive ranged weapons are that great?
Author:  Baldric [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we show bypasses massive weapons do?
Algon is still getting a solid 4 attacks with his halberd.

You can go front row with a halberd and will win in a 1v1 against pretty much anyone. Nobody is going to outdamage you.
Author:  Dulrik [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we show bypasses massive weapons do?
I will look into re-tweaking it.
Author:  Edoras [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we show bypasses massive weapons do?
Baldric wrote:
You can go front row with a halberd and will win in a 1v1 against pretty much anyone. Nobody is going to outdamage you.
IMO, stone skin should give someone enough time to mangle one of your arms before you kill them.
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