Shattered Kingdoms

If minotaur classes that have toughness receive "double" toughness for their head, why do griffon classes that receive toughness not receive "double" toughness for their entire body? I propose a modification, if it is seen as logical. I think it would make griffon more viable as a fighters class.

I doubt it will happen. I'm pretty sure Dulrik thinks griffons suck.

To be fair, though, they kind of do.

Kind of?

Dulrik hates griffons.

Which of these two creatures appears to have the better naturally armored head?

http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/ ... _1zchj.jpg

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs17/f/2007/ ... y_orgo.jpg

Plus, I never claimed that they have "double" toughness. Only that it was "enhanced".

I also don't hate griffons. It was my idea to add griffons to the game 15 years ago and I wrote all the code to enable them to be PCs. I wouldn't suggest something that I hate.

Denial is always the first sign.

You would if you just wanted to see them get kicked around all the time.

No, I actually wouldn't. I wouldn't waste any effort at all on something I dislike. Instead, I would use my valuable time on more interesting pursuits.

Well, I think there's some reason for the disconnect here. The mechanics meant to encourage playing humans rather than griffons work a little too well. I like the race's roleplay, but spending time levelling a griffon just seems a waste. Griffons will be largely impotent against the game's toughest challenges anyway. Using them as mounts to circumvent the 3x3 slot party restriction, is one of the few reasons I can think of to bring one along.

It's possible I'm just long out of date, and new items have made griffons just fine. But that's certainly not the impression I've gotten from the forums.

That's not to say I agree with the original idea. I also have trouble imagining feathers keeping up with armor to the extent it already does. An ideal fix would be a new innate or two, to help make up for the things they can't do. But an easier fix would be:
* increasing attribute maximums like dexterity and constitution, so they can put their extra ability points to better use.
* better second-row weaponry, so they can use their high strength despite their fragility.

I have played my share of griffons. I like griffons because they are built for me. I have absolutely no knowledge of eq or how to get it, and griffons don't use any, anyway. That said, griffon innate toughness, while much better than before they had it, is still the suck. From a realism standpoint, it makes sense, since their wing bones would necessarily be hollow and feathers and fur are no match for steel. But from a game balance standpoint, it severely weakens griffons. (Their stat spread isn't super conducive to being a strong spell-caster, and much more conducive to melee in my opinion.)

While I like the general aim of Forsooth's post, I suggest a different tack. Dulrik recently (to my perspective) added a magic-flight melee negative modifier. I would suggest a griffon flight melee positive modifier or two, because griffons are meant to melee from the air. They are, essentially, the B-17s and B-24s of the game. But I suggest they should be the P-38s and F-4Us of the game.

My suggestion is:
While on the ground, griffons are unmodified from present.
While in the air, griffons have a large agility modifier (that stacks with everything) to avoid many more blows and bash attempts (If you're on the ground, how do you bash someone who is flying at head level or higher?).
While in the air, griffons can "fly over" front row foes to attack back row foes, regardless of weapon used, but at greater risk of being hit and at greater harm value, since the griffon would be exposing his/her soft underbelly to the enemy. (Perfect time for a modifier on mid-targetting for this effect.)