Shattered Kingdoms
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Increase LT gains in CRS and remove cool-down timer
https://shatteredkingdoms.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24210		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  ObjectivistActivist [ Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:25 am ]
Post subject:  Increase LT gains in CRS and remove cool-down timer
I've had the opportunity to be involved in a fair number of CRS confrontations lately that have resulted in Loyalty Token gains, and I think that it's an excellent move in the right direction not only to minimize ninja relic ganking but also to incentivize pk-oriented CRS battles. However, I think the incentive doesn't go far enough.

I don't know if I'm supposed to spill the beans about the specific rewards for LT-worthy raids/defenses, so I won't without some word from Dulrik. I'll just say that the current reward level seems to be static, and in some cases it's really low. I think a sliding scale would be much more appropriate, weighted perhaps to favor attacker vs defender since defender has a bit of an advantage already (EDIT: Though it does seem as if this weighting is already in place in the calculations for eligibility for LT rewards).

There also appears to be a kind of cool-down timer on LT's earned during CRS. I don't think that correctly incentivizes PK-oriented CRS use. When the Adepts got their relic back that one time after like 6 months + of having it held by the Fist, it might have felt like a bit of a screw job because of the bug in CRS at the time, but the constant fighting was actually pretty intense and enjoyable. Multiple raids are also not unheard of now, and I can name at least two instances in the last two weeks where I've been involved in multi-attacks where the first victory resulted in LTs, but the second and third didn't. I don't think a successful defense against overwhelming odds is any less impressive the second or third time it's accomplished. If anything, it's more impressive since supply levels are lower and fatigue starts to become a factor and whatnot.

I'm a big fan of changes to CRS that make it more attractive to use it as intended: meaning, as a venue for PvP. I like the changes that were already implemented in that regard, I just don't think they go far enough to really incentivize properly.

As an aside, it's looking anecdotally like the PvE elements of CRS were buffed lately to delay attackers longer and make entry into HQs harder to just breeze by. I think this is a great change, as it provides defenders a real time frame in which to organize an effective defense. Good change there, too.
Author:  grep [ Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Increase LT gains in CRS and remove cool-down timer
Better to err on fewer rewards than promote the farming of tokens through raiding -- this isn't WoW.
Author:  ObjectivistActivist [ Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Increase LT gains in CRS and remove cool-down timer
grep wrote:
Better to err on fewer rewards than promote the farming of tokens through raiding -- this isn't WoW.


The only way to earn tokens through raiding is through engaging in PvP: which is the purpose of cabals and CRS. Your argument ignores the concept of both systems, which is nor particularly surprising since you apparently want to be able to ignore the concepts the game is founded on whenever you want without consequence.
Author:  grep [ Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Increase LT gains in CRS and remove cool-down timer
The game isn't founded on MMO DKP-farming, even if you have the RPPVP to justify it. If the defender and attacker both received tokens, and then the winner received more on top, that might be something, as it would reward the behavior of being online and participating in PVP like you say. Presently, the only behavior rewarded is winning, not necessarily playing.

I'm not going to derail by responding to your personal implications. I'll just say that it seems like certain people want more and more; is the victory itself not a reward enough now or something? Rewards seem to have quickly become expectations.
Author:  MsPooperTrooper [ Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Increase LT gains in CRS and remove cool-down timer
grep wrote:
Better to err on fewer rewards than promote the farming of tokens through raiding -- this isn't WoW.


I agree with this, actually. You're very right, OA. The purpose of CRS is to encourage pvp. However, I think that if a change were made without being too careful, it might nudge the game in the wrong direction.

I wouldn't be against a change outright, though. You mentioned that the token rewarding system should favor the attacker, and then you amended that it may already do so. I'd be curious to know how much, if that information were allowed to become common OOC knowledge.

Without knowing how, exactly, the system works, allow a nubcake to throw in her two cents. It might be interesting if the LT reward gave a bonus to each of the attackers depending on the number of relics retrieved from the innermost Guardian. Then the cool-down timer would take effect, although perhaps not as long as the current one apparently is.

As for the defenders, I agree that if you're in need of defending yourself several times through the course of the cool down timer, you're going to be less and less able to do so each consecutive time. However, that's generally the case with the attackers as well (although not always). Maybe there could be a timer set for X amount of time, and if, before that time is up, the same HQ is attacked again, the defenders get rewarded again if their defense is a success.

I'd like to see what the people who've been more involved with CRS think, though.
Author:  ObjectivistActivist [ Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Increase LT gains in CRS and remove cool-down timer
MsPooperTrooper wrote:

I wouldn't be against a change outright, though. You mentioned that the token rewarding system should favor the attacker, and then you amended that it may already do so. I'd be curious to know how much, if that information were allowed to become common OOC knowledge.


What I meant was that you require less defenders present to earn LTs than defenders require attackers to be present to earn LTs. The amount of reward is the same.
Author:  ninja_ardith [ Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Increase LT gains in CRS and remove cool-down timer
Who wants to engage in CRS when the game favors classes that have ranged abilities, like warlocks and mercenaries and scouts in these instances.

Or the MR barb that can wreck even the best planned offensive.

Even giving that there's usually a huge wall that attackers have to climb to get access to defenders. Those outer guardians have an absurd number of hit points, and if the attacking group doesn't have any ranged classes with them then they're going to be easy pickings for the defenders.

Moreover I don't buy the argument that its there to promote PvP. If it was there to promote PvP then there would be equal access to all cabals to getting on the inside. I've played way more games that had objective based games that didn't require a triple objective to claim victory (killing the outer guardian, killing the inner guardian and then placing the relic on your guardian). At any time during any of these objectives the defenders can shut you down by killing you at the outer guardian, killing you at the inner guardian, or denying victory by being a ninja and grabbing the relic(s) when you kill the inner guardian. That last one is really cheap since all it requires is a person sitting ethereal to make a last minute drop and run out.

I'm opposed to increasing loyalty tokens for raids. The best reward for claiming victory in CRS is being an [REDACTED] and denying the other cabals their powers, and in those cases it's unlikely that the attackers and defenders skill level and forces are going to be equal.
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