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Sorceror Discussion
https://shatteredkingdoms.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24902		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Galthryn [ Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Sorceror Discussion
Created this thread as to not go off on an off-topic tangent in the code discussion thread.

Dulrik wrote:
theORplayer wrote:
Quote:
- Add wisdom and charisma penalties to charm person
Fair enough, due to being controlled, but wouldn't charms be less concerned about themselves and throw their full weight behind things? Shouldn't they get bonuses (up to racial max) of str, con, and dex then to even it out?

I just feel a we're going to nerf a sorcerer being able to use charm for swashbucklers, priests, and other things - we should probably buff it so they have decent melee tanks/damage.

Otherwise, we're just opening a gap up more between pure damage classes (mercenary/barbarian/scouts) versus casting classes.

Right now as it stands, an MR barbarian who is smart is pretty immune to a sorcerer and their charms as it stands. Also pretty immune to rogues, bards, swashbucklers, barbs....etc.

My philosophy is that having a charmed NPC of class X should never be as good as having an equivalent level PC of class X. It should also not be quite as good as a non-charmed NPC of class X. I think this change is consistent with that vision and updates the spells to account for mental bonuses that were previously ignored or non-existent.


Well, while it's true that an MR barb is mostly immune to most things a sorc can throw at him, playing that class comes with so many hiccups in and of itself that if they weren't able to enjoy at least that much, there would be little or no reason to even try the combination.

As for charm person, I don't really think this change 'nerfs' us all that much. It seems to be reducing things that otherwise were not reduced yes, but there have been other things in the past that have knocked us down much harder than this.

Namely, nothing seems to have eyes for colorspray anymore and while this is still a very useful spell in pvp, it's safer to rely on something else on PvE. Then there are also many things immune to acid blast and an entire area where you cannot petrify. Also with the change that blocks bringing charmed NPC's over 'air', the sorceror effectively loses most usefulness as a party member for trips to places like the temple of murder.

TLDR: Sorceror is becoming a 'third wheel' for adventuring parties. I'm not really going to attempt and discuss his pvp ability, as I don't think I'm qualified to.


[edited because I can't type]
Author:  Tojishiro [ Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorceror Discussion
Galthryn wrote:
Created this thread as to not go off on an off-topic tangent in the code discussion thread.

Also with the change that blocks bringing charmed NPC's over 'air', the sorceror effectively loses most usefulness as a party member for trips to places like the temple of murder.


Having played a Sorceror for a healthy amount of time to warrant an opinion on the above matter, I would propose that that particular charm change be revoked. Having a player drop to their death in order to lose loot and corpse should be an activity policed and punished by human means - perhaps make a special log entry for it? - rather than hard coding it. It has been annoying in the past and it still is annoying now for the majority of sorc players that are not out for the easy grief and easy kills.
Author:  ninja_ardith [ Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorceror Discussion
Do you not believe in making PC friends or something?

[FLAME REMOVED]
Author:  Tojishiro [ Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorceror Discussion
Why, Ardith!

So nice to see that your piece of constructive contribution in a Gameplay post is the same rubbish that you'd post in GD ... just candy-paper wrapped so as not to be accused of flaming outside it.

I see absolutely zero points or arguments offered in your post, boy. Better luck next time.
Author:  ninja_ardith [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorceror Discussion
I'm telling you to make friends. Is it really so hard to ask a warrior class to tag along with you to places, and that you can work together?

I'm not gonna be sorry that you seem to want to possess 0 tact and consider yourself a solo badass.
Author:  Tojishiro [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorceror Discussion
And, likewise, I'm not going to be sorry that the answer to a nerf in one of the class's major nerfs is "screw charm, don't use it, go out with PCs instead".

Here's an alternative: I like friends. I like my friends to stand behind a charmed meat shield so they don't hurt as much even more.

Tactful enough for you?
Author:  Dulrik [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorceror Discussion
FYI: If I need to make a code decision that is either going to promote solo play or group play, I am going to be promoting group play.
Author:  Tojishiro [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorceror Discussion
Understood and respected, however this code decision - the one that charm is released if you fly over cities and such - was not in order to promote group play. If you recall, it was a solution to people charming others and dropping them to their irrecoverable deaths (and loss of loot).
Author:  Galthryn [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorceror Discussion
Dulrik wrote:
FYI: If I need to make a code decision that is either going to promote solo play or group play, I am going to be promoting group play.


All with you on this, hence the point of my original point, sorc becoming a third wheel in many trips due to his unreliable spells.

It's true we have a lot of nice utility, but seeing as there aren't always enough people to group with, it was good that a sorc could 'kinda sorta' fill in for the role of a semi-tank, semi-damage dealer or even semi-healer. Right now all a sorc can do in a group is added spell damage wherever that can apply. Party dynamics-wise, his role in a group-play situation is pretty diminished from my PoV.

Of course this isn't the only class that suffers from this, but it seems to be near the bottom of the wishlist when LFG :)
Author:  Dulrik [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorceror Discussion
I do not think you are claiming they are incapable of contributing. Do people actually turn down group mates? I did not think there was such an overabundance of people playing that they can afford to be picky. But if they turn you down, just let them know you will remember that the next time they ask for their items enchanted.
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