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Cabals and CRS Q&A
https://shatteredkingdoms.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=26132		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Meissa [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Cabals and CRS Q&A
Get the update here.
Author:  iali [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cabals and CRS Q&A
As I recall it wasn't simply the system of CRS that drove the playerbase away. What the playerbase griped about most at the time of CRS being impelemented was that the staff destroyed the RP of the 'secret society' like the Druids by creating the capture the flag type HQ's in the first place. That said, if the relics are going away will we see a return to old-style HQ's?
Author:  ObjectivistActivist [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cabals and CRS Q&A
A few thoughts on this.

I happened to like CRS. I joined after it was implemented and after the "secret society" aspect of most cabals. I was playing an Adept when the first massive-scale test of the system happened. It was exciting to log on early and be involved in a massive, rp-driven preparation that took multiple skillsets and attitudes to pull off. The follow-up defense was and still is one of the most epic adventures I've ever seen on SK, bar none. At the time I was definitely irked as a player that things didn't work out as planned, but I wouldn't give up what I think of the event now for peace of mind then.

Following that, after the HQ guard groups were fixed, I continued to participate in CRS as it became more regularly used. I played Hammer helping recover from Losache and the Adept tower, I played unaffiliated dealing with helping defend against raids while unable to enter the guardian room, I played all sort of permutations of the system as it evolved from that major Adept event into the system it was (and I think more or less has remained) two years ago. I enjoyed the system extensively, and I think helped spur some changes that were beneficial overall (a sprite shaman shouldn't be able to solo an outer, no matter how long it takes.)

That being said, I think the investment necessary to successfully navigate the system as it was was probably overly intensive. And it was too easy to set up a nearly invincible state of relic hoarding. The classes and HQs were imbalanced in terms of attack and defense, and the cabal abilities were too disparate in the advantages and disadvantages aura-specific and power-specific groups had. I think it also encouraged a mentality of camping and ninja assaults with war declarations often happening only while actually holding the enemy relic, and while no leader was online to RP about.

Most of all, I think the system promoted poor RP. Leaders of relic-less factions refused to yield despite losing PC and NPC resources. PC cabal members would be online, but refuse to defend their relics because getting killed (not even necessarily jlooted but often enough yes) was either guaranteed due to class weaknesses or lack of prep, or it was always just easier to try a ninja re-gank when no one was online.

So all in all I'm glad it's no longer an influence on cabals.

Questions.

With CRS no longer being a thing, will cabals be returning to the pre-CRS fluff of secret societies? And will that affect induction policy? Are there plans to create in-game resources or quests that could reveal the existence and rp of the cabals?

Will HQ design be more flexible in form?

Will there be an attempt in general to limit faction conflict? How does this affect resource management for cabals, ie, guardians' purpose and costs of maintaining a cabal?
Author:  jreid_1985 [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cabals and CRS Q&A
I figured this would eventually happen since the difficulty involved for casual players would require recruitment of nearly the entire who list for relic recovery. *no sarcasm*

Curious as well as to what HQs will now function as.
Author:  Thuban [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cabals and CRS Q&A
Here is my take on this. Dulrik can obviously overrule/correct me where I'm wrong.

1. The impetus to have cabal HQs that conformed to specific layout standards was PvP game balance for CRS. With that concern removed (at least for the time being, as indicated by the announcement), patrons and cabal membership should have more leeway in customizing HQs. There will obviously still be standards - you can't expect your HQ to house a suit of +10 armor of invincibility for your personal use - but I don't think uniform layouts and HQs serving primarily as relic fortresses will be necessary.

2. Factions will still have a role in PvP. We are working on new systems of rewarding PvP, and much of this (maybe all of it) will be done through factions. Note that factions also includes tribunals, and some of the integration of PvP and factions will be shifted from cabals to tribunals.

3. Regarding faction finances and upkeep, factions do still have outer guardians for the time being, and cabal diplomacy does still exist. There will likely be more uses for cabal finances in the future.

Our goals in all of this are to produce a system of PvP that rewards both veterans, who put in the time and effort to excel at PvP, and casual players, whom we want to be able to participate without being overburdened by time commitments and being forced to undertake the challenge of things like CRS raids, such as they were. CRS was a piece of cake for veterans who did all the necessary preparation, but a nigh-impossible challenge for genuine newbies.

Lastly, in case this isn't already extremely obvious to anyone who has been here for a while, keep calm and don't expect changes to happen overnight. We're working on it, but it takes time to get it all coordinated and implemented. We've got Dulrik burning the candle on both ends on this and other code work. If you like the recent changes, I'm hoping you'll like what's in store in the near future. To that end, if you have specific input for what you want out of factions, PvP, and CRS, this is the thread to put it in.
Author:  Baranov [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cabals and CRS Q&A
I still like the idea of assaulting a HQ and taking a relic, but I always hated that it (1) crippled the faction (some more so than others - I do appreciate how it was lessened to only take the top two but the power balance was skewed considering the abilities lost in some cases) (2) usually lead to ninja strikes with coordinated log ons in the middle of the night and (3) led to (sometimes) outrageous demands to have it returned.
I've seen so many diplomatic queries deflate because the side that took the relic didn't really want the war to end, so they made demands that were impossible of the loser. While I understand that is often the way of war, in SK I would now reference Rule #1. More often than not I saw wars ending when the opposing faction, unable to meet the demands, retired after being pked into the dirt.

IMO it made no sense that the powers came from relics. Like the Fists losing out on numchuck skillz because their relic was gone? What without that fancy gadget your discipline means nothing? The Midnight Council losing out on powers? I always assumed such things stemmed directly from the Emperor etc etc.

What I had always wanted was for the relic to be more of a monetary/morale thing. Seeing as upkeep is imperative in any war (especially now with those changes to maintaining wars) a relic being lost would take a chunk out of the coffers of the loser, and place money into the coffers of the faction who hand it to their guardian. Secondarily I loved the bonuses for victory, for example when you successfully defended a cabal HQ from an attack. Make that a passive (but lesser) buff to all cabal members who control an enemy relic - and have it stack per relic owned

Enough to make a huge difference? No, but we all know every little bit counts when it comes to buffing in the world of SK.
Author:  Trosis [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cabals and CRS Q&A
I've been on both sides of CRS. I've refused to negotiate terms to get it back. I hadn't made terms of return clear when I held relics.
All of that is on the RP side though. Not coded. Left to the players to take care of.
In regards to mechanics, I really liked CRS.
It was one of the most difficult things to achieve, that most players had easy access to.
(Some end game PVE is tougher but most people don't know how to get there.)
I learned a lot from CRS in the ways of group combat.

There were some things that could have been done to keep the playing field even.
Adjust the number of spawning guards based on how many defenders were online.
Make cabal gate work as soon as the outer initiates combat. (It that isn't how it already works)
I'm sure there are numerous other ways things could have been improved.

It's bittersweet that CRS got removed. We'll see how it plays out.
Author:  Dulrik [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cabals and CRS Q&A
Trosis wrote:
Adjust the number of spawning guards based on how many defenders were online.

That has been true for a long, long time. Automatic defenses were scaled down based on online defenders to encourage PvP instead of ninja ganking in the middle of the night. But I guess it's hard to resist a good ninja gank...

Trosis wrote:
Make cabal gate work as soon as the outer initiates combat. (It that isn't how it already works)

And this should have always worked from the very moment cabal gate was added. Was there a bug?

Trosis wrote:
It's bittersweet that CRS got removed. We'll see how it plays out.

I would call it suspended rather than removed. Will it come back the same, changed or not at all? I honestly don't know at this date. It depends on popular demand. Over the years, I have heard many people complain about CRS and not liking it. It's predictably ironic that the feedback on this thread is generally supportive of it.

If you happen to like that it's gone, do please speak up and let us know!
Author:  ObjectivistActivist [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cabals and CRS Q&A
Dulrik wrote:

It's predictably ironic that the feedback on this thread is generally supportive of it.

If you happen to like that it's gone, do please speak up and let us know!


I think for the most part while there were enjoyable aspects of the system for people, that the majority thus far have said it's better it's gone. Myself included.
Author:  Dubzilla [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cabals and CRS Q&A
I second that
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