Shattered Kingdoms :: View topic - End Game Loot and Questionable Multiplaying

The idea that you're junking it so it'll be available on the other character may be fine, or may run afoul of multiplay rules depending on what the players are actually doing. Specifics matter quite a bit.

Junking it and going later? Fine. Leading an expedition out to the load point, switching characters to junk the gear, and then switching back and repopping the NPC? Basically just multiplaying eq xfer with extra steps.

"Friends" can mean a million things, and is generally as vague and accusatory as possible until people are called upon to define what they mean by it.

Most people in cabals with each other are friendly with each other, both ICly and OOCly. Why would people decide to punish themselves by making characters that don't want to be friendly with their teammates? The intent of these kinds of rules isn't to keep people from equipping the people they play with, but to keep people from moving equipment around for OOC reasons.

If players want to see more active enforcement it's an easy solution. Report things with evidence of it happening via the rules enforcement form. Just be careful what you wish for as I've yet to see one report that didn't beget another. Anything said as far as "no one cares about X" is just not true, and things people didn't give a damn about suddenly become real important once someone else reports them for an infraction.

Note: Reports with zero information and zero supporting data except someone being sus aren't going to get a lot of attention, but they do get more attention than the sniping back and forth that I write off as people letting off steam otherwise I don't think there is a single player that wouldn't be "reported" for a litany of reasons.

Author:	BAI7l7 [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:	End Game Loot and Questionable Multiplaying
So this trend has been going on for the last 20 years where people hoard end game gear and transfer loot among their buddies (and maybe throughout all of SK history). It would be okay if we all didn't know each other and we gave gear like GGI armor to another person in game that we dont know OOCly, or we just want to help our tribunal/cabal The main issue is when people who know each other OOCly and transferring end game gear back and forth between multiple characters as a form of OOC hookup. This bypasses the concept of the loot you touch, you cannot reattain by any of your alts. So I call this multiplaying by proxy, because we have another person to hold onto the loot for us. Or in another case, we have alts holding onto end game gear, until someone needs to be hooked up through OOC connections. I propose a new rule that with any end game gear(GGI, Ephialtes, Somnium), the armor/weapons has to be destroyed and be re-attained in order for another character to keep it preventing OOC proxy multiplaying. Maybe we could do a 1 week grace period for faction to reattain the gear that was destroyed, so it allows others a chance at the end game gear.

Author:	BAI7l7 [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: End Game Loot and Questionable Multiplaying
Also since potions are handled differently than most gear, it cant be marked as transferring. The xfer of potions is another issue between characters. For example, the person that brewed it can get it again on another character without impunity. Basically the potions are washed the moment it leaves the brewers hands, but in most cases if this does happen, it is done inadvertently.

Author:	Algorab [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: End Game Loot and Questionable Multiplaying
Can't do much about potions without code, lots of potions are limited or timer'd or alignment restricted to help this but twinks are going to twink as long as it's possible in any way, shape, or form. And as far as gear goes that's already basically the rule. Gear flow between people due to character retirement/abandonment in the same group is generally kosher as long as no one is actually transferring between their own characters, also fine just to dump it all in the bin come what may, or even junking every last piece of it. It's when people decide to change allegiances by switching characters and try to move gear across groups/alignments/characters, potions and equipment both, that it becomes some really glaring problematic behavior. It's even more annoying because most of the people who do this are entirely capable of just getting the loot again themselves anyway meaning it's mostly frustrating other players just to make their gameplay easier. As someone said to me "What's to stop them from just going to the other side's inn and binning it there" and that's basically the crux of the issue. There is an entire system devoted to automatically dealing with things like this, and the people that want to mess around and walk lines still find new and exciting ways to do so.

Author:	BAI7l7 [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: End Game Loot and Questionable Multiplaying
Just to be super clear: - Its okay to hoard gear and transfer it amongst friends as long as it doesn't go to the same person's alt - Its okay to transfer potions One last Question: - Is it okay to junk all the gear, and re-attain it on an alternate character (same person)? - Are coins in the same class as potion? Because coins are hard to track too This is a very scary gray area because if an IMM is having a bad day, he can really go down on someone when its okay for someone else?

Author:	Edoras [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: End Game Loot and Questionable Multiplaying
BAI7l7 wrote: Is it okay to junk all the gear, and re-attain it on an alternate character (same person)? Definitely not immediately. Doing so after waiting some time is somewhat shady and may end up with you being punished depending on the timeframe.

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Author:	BAI7l7 [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: End Game Loot and Questionable Multiplaying
Edoras wrote: BAI7l7 wrote: Is it okay to junk all the gear, and re-attain it on an alternate character (same person)? Definitely not immediately. Doing so after waiting some time is somewhat shady and may end up with you being punished depending on the timeframe. So the issue comes up when.. how long do you give it? Because technically the destroyed item gives it a blank slate. Do you show a log that you waited a whole day? Or after re-acquiring it, you let someone else hold it for you for a few days. After that, pretend like it was yours all along.

Author:	TacoRobot [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: End Game Loot and Questionable Multiplaying
Believe it or not, I would personally like to see staff take a more active involvement in these particular issues, as I think it really violates the golden rule and is not healthy for the game. Staff can generally see which player is which character, etc, and I don’t think it’d be hard to put 2+2 together in some scenarios. I think it’d be good for the game if staff stepped in to police alts a little harder. Especially when some of these characters start basically looking like storage bins. It’s not fun if none of the endgame bosses ever have their eq (or other [REDACTED] is hoarded) because “alt of this guy is holding it until somebody happens to level up in his main’s cabal and needs it” or “it only changes hands when a player is done with a char and xfers or ‘junks it’ so his new team can immediately go get it”. The issue is, imo, this stuff is very easy to see for the player base and it can be both aggravating and disheartening for players. There’s no way staff can’t see this stuff and decipher intent. Stripping people of the ability to have alts also seems like a pretty mild and reasonable punishment. Mind you, I am talking about like entire sets of end game eq. Nobody cares about “this dragonglass choker changed hands 5 times and your alt touched it at one point!!!” The alt restriction would at least stop “junk it and go get it” since you’d need to level the new char. Like, if Jim the Adept just leveled a hammer char, left the adepts to join the hammer and suddenly all his loot is in lightie hands SOMEHOW, idk why staff can’t slap that player on the wrist. Same for Jane the MCer who also has a darkie alt that is geared out but barely gets played and...suddenly logs on to give her stuff to one of Jane’s new MC friends. These are pretty blatant multiplaying instances that sour the game.

Author:	Algorab [ Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: End Game Loot and Questionable Multiplaying
The idea that you're junking it so it'll be available on the other character may be fine, or may run afoul of multiplay rules depending on what the players are actually doing. Specifics matter quite a bit. Junking it and going later? Fine. Leading an expedition out to the load point, switching characters to junk the gear, and then switching back and repopping the NPC? Basically just multiplaying eq xfer with extra steps. "Friends" can mean a million things, and is generally as vague and accusatory as possible until people are called upon to define what they mean by it. Most people in cabals with each other are friendly with each other, both ICly and OOCly. Why would people decide to punish themselves by making characters that don't want to be friendly with their teammates? The intent of these kinds of rules isn't to keep people from equipping the people they play with, but to keep people from moving equipment around for OOC reasons. If players want to see more active enforcement it's an easy solution. Report things with evidence of it happening via the rules enforcement form. Just be careful what you wish for as I've yet to see one report that didn't beget another. Anything said as far as "no one cares about X" is just not true, and things people didn't give a damn about suddenly become real important once someone else reports them for an infraction. Note: Reports with zero information and zero supporting data except someone being sus aren't going to get a lot of attention, but they do get more attention than the sniping back and forth that I write off as people letting off steam otherwise I don't think there is a single player that wouldn't be "reported" for a litany of reasons.

Author:	BAI7l7 [ Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: End Game Loot and Questionable Multiplaying
I got the answer I needed from t his and if someone says otherwise, I will point them to this thread. So if someone junks their end game gear, and comes back with a party later in the day on an alt and reattains it on an alt. This is considered legitimate. I needed this line clarified because people were getting angry, including myself, of the way gears are being moved around from person to person. The way players are conducting themselves right now, they aren't breaking any rules as you have laid out. Personally I prefer that the end-game loots have special rules that prevent the select few from always getting it. Overall, just report any overt cheating going on.

Author:	TacoRobot [ Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: End Game Loot and Questionable Multiplaying
Algorab wrote: The idea that you're junking it so it'll be available on the other character may be fine, or may run afoul of multiplay rules depending on what the players are actually doing. Specifics matter quite a bit. Junking it and going later? Fine. Leading an expedition out to the load point, switching characters to junk the gear, and then switching back and repopping the NPC? Basically just multiplaying eq xfer with extra steps. "Friends" can mean a million things, and is generally as vague and accusatory as possible until people are called upon to define what they mean by it. Most people in cabals with each other are friendly with each other, both ICly and OOCly. Why would people decide to punish themselves by making characters that don't want to be friendly with their teammates? The intent of these kinds of rules isn't to keep people from equipping the people they play with, but to keep people from moving equipment around for OOC reasons. If players want to see more active enforcement it's an easy solution. Report things with evidence of it happening via the rules enforcement form. Just be careful what you wish for as I've yet to see one report that didn't beget another. Anything said as far as "no one cares about X" is just not true, and things people didn't give a damn about suddenly become real important once someone else reports them for an infraction. Note: Reports with zero information and zero supporting data except someone being sus aren't going to get a lot of attention, but they do get more attention than the sniping back and forth that I write off as people letting off steam otherwise I don't think there is a single player that wouldn't be "reported" for a litany of reasons. There is a reason humans still do a lot of jobs despite robots technically being able to do them. A human should be able to look at the examples I mentioned and see how they are far more glaring examples of multiplaying and, as you said is a problem, "people moving around equipment for OOC reasons". If I had an energy kama on Joe, he loses it in PVP and 2 months later, I wind up with it on another character via PVP, that is quite possibly legitimate, and I would think staff could interpret if it was (or if it was at least not /completely/ sus). But that gets flagged by code, so staff is willing to act on it? If I am sitting on the stardust armor for 2 months on Jane my darkie merc, while I play Jinnie my MC sorc as my main character, and then suddenly some new MC merc pops up and I...log on Jane to give that stuff to Jinnie's buddy, or even just junk it so we can go get it, how is that not literally "people moving around equipment for OOC reasons". That's...not really legitimate in any way, shape, or form, and I was basically using my alt as a storage bin for eq I couldn't keep on my main because of loot rules, until I had a friend that could use it, just to OOCly keep it out of the hands of other players. Nevermind the whole "level a new char, and mysteriously my old char's eq is now in the hands of somebody in my new char's faction". Like...even if it makes IC sense, and you personally aren't getting any of the items, you are still heavily benefitting from what is clearly OOC motivation for giving that eq out.

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