Shattered Kingdoms

What would it entail if people wanted to come back and play? I'm unsure of the process because as far as I know their IP address is completely banned from both the game and the game forums so they can't log in and pray or pm you here.

I was also wondering which players have complete lifelong bans. I understand that some bans regarding sexual harassment or anything of that nature is totally understandable but I think the other bans should have a duration instead of being permanent.

Basically, the process is the same no matter the individual. If someone was banned and they would like to return then they contact us via e-mail. That e-mail can be as simple as expressing regret for previous actions and the request, but every single e-mail is as different as the person sending it. Once that e-mail is received, I will either ask questions, or clarify things, with both players and staff alike, even more so if it was a ban put into place by someone other than me, or if I'm unaware of the offense itself. We/I try to come to a decision as quickly as possible, and personally if there is a way to let someone in on temporary restriction rather than leaving the ban in place, that's what I will lean toward. Sadly, that's not always possible.

There won't ever be a blanket unbanning, or anything similar, mostly because the people who were banned were banned for a reason. Sometimes those reasons can be water under the bridge, and sometimes it was more of a behavioral issue in dealing with other players and staff combined with a lesser reason. People do learn, grow, and change over time, but it's always a case by case type situation, and it's the e-mail itself that is the first look on whether or not that might have happened.

I understand the desire to know who has a "lifelong" ban, but it doesn't serve a whole lot of purpose and if you're close to the person who wants unbanned, I'm quite sure they'll let you know if/when they are allowed to return. Otherwise, it just sort of serves as some kind of additional shaming of the player/character and I don't believe that's very nice or productive. We aren't interested in kicking someone while they are down any more than we are having someone who chooses to be a continual disruption as a part of the community. With that said, I am specifically trying to inform people who do fall under the more "lifelong" type ban of that fact so that there isn't some kind of false hope generated. We don't want to string anyone along, and would prefer they find another place they enjoy playing rather than waiting on something that isn't going to happen.

Also, as a brief aside, the reason you don't see more "timed" bans is that bans are a last resort to put in place and require a threshold that is pretty hard to hit. If you've earned a ban it's usually until you improve whatever conduct led to the ban, and we don't have any way of knowing how long that will take. Some players have had immediate wake up calls after a ban, and some others never really seem to get it.

TLDR: Every single case is different, and it always starts with an e-mail to staff. I would prefer the requests go to me (Algorab@ShatteredKingdoms.org) since I'm currently the rules manager, but if uncomfortable with me for any reason it can always go to Dulrik instead. Most of the "permanent" bans are what I call culmination bans, where it's not any single action, but a pattern of behavior over a long period of time that is unwelcome, and continued despite staff intervention.

If we were to ask about specific banned players, would you give us a yes or no? If they have the potential opportunity to be unbanned, that is.
The first that come to mind are Finney, Grep, and the player of Ernassus. (Dojojo?)

Edit: you handled the question very professionally. Kinda gives me hope in the imm-staff, despite the tension we had while Thuban was RM. Thanks.

I appreciate the kind words, but even asking about a specific couple of players isn't something I'm comfortable with personally. Those three players are people, and I'm sure if they want to inquire about, or share, their current status they will. It just doesn't seem appropriate to discuss them in a possibly negative fashion, or any other players status, in a forum they might not have access to. On the flip side, if a player is allowed to return I will usually make a post replying to the initial afterlife post announcing the ban with the applicable particulars. I do try to refrain from mentioning any current characters or possible new forumID because people should be allowed to have a bit of a fresh start if they want one.

Basically, I'm all about welcoming people back as players when they return, and letting people know about it as a positive outcome. I'll continue to do that in any situation where it isn't going to cause some kind of problem for the returning player. However, if you don't see something like that it probably means they aren't eligible to return, weren't eligible to return when they asked, or they never actually asked. All it takes to clarify which is to ask the person, and let them answer you if they want to.

I know that's probably not the answer you were hoping for, but it's the best I think I can do to try and keep the player base as a whole informed of changes in status while simultaneous maintaining some kind of discretion for people who aren't currently members of the community.

I'd like to see you reach out to veterans of the game to try to get them back.
A short email stating "I am accepting ban repeals, if you are interested."
Veterans, as negative as the imms might see them, are what make SK thrive.
The lead the PvE trips. They RP and PK hard and as much as it sucks to get looted, it makes SK interesting.
Bring back the vets and others will follow.
Finney being banned was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
I'd like to return. But with fountain RP'rs, the game isn't much fun to me.

I don't disagree with much of what you're saying here except you'll find that staff generally like veteran players because most staff are veteran players themselves, but I will add that many of the people who have become drivers of activity in the past started off as "just" fountain RPers. Also, it's probably going to mean a lot more coming from a friend or acquaintance saying that you would enjoy it if they returned than a somewhat nameless and faceless immortal. I did make a post in passing reiterating that we take a look at appeals/returns, but perhaps an alternative method away from the forums would be a good additional idea as well.

I do understand your feelings on certain players you are familiar with being banned being a negative influence on your desire to play. I remember a situation long ago where a family member was banned, and it of course caused issues with the remaining members desire to play. It's regrettable to say the least, but I'm sure you understand why that, or any other similar kind of relationship, really shouldn't enter into the process when deciding what kind of punishment to levy. I'm not saying this to make you feel better about any certain person being banned, only to point out that sometimes a player being banned really is a no-win situation as far as player retention, and all that can be done is try to make what seems like the right decision and move forward.

I do want to thank your input on the topic, and urge you PM or e-mail me any time on this issue, or any other questions you might have.

I think it would benefit the game if you reached out on somewhere other than the main forums.
Perhaps a post on that forbidden log site you guys say you don't know about, but obviously read. lol sorry. Cheap shot. Only jokes. But for real. I think it would go a long way if you reached out to banned players and retired players.
Since we're on the topic of regaining the player base, I think you should email addresses that have been associated to players in the last some odd years. Offer them a free boost to mentor to try to get them to come back.
I believe that reaching out to the banned vets and easing the grind for old players would go a long way.

I also feel like this being a public conversation is good PR. So I'd prefer to discuss this here rather than in a quick PM.

Honestly, Thuban's ban-crusade has caused a lot of tension. I think you're making great strides to alleviate that tension, but extreme measures might need to be taken to return SK to it's former glory. Or at least a shard of it's former glory.

I think even more so than banned veterans is the number of lapsed veterans who left for one of dozens of reasons, many of which have been alleviated, changed, or removed. Not that there aren't players who are currently banned that couldn't contribute, but the barrier to entry for the lapsed players is obviously lower.



I don't have a problem with this conversation being public, and I agree that it being public is nice, but I more meant in a general sense if you, or anyone else, wants to e-mail or PM me with something that they might not feel comfortable with sharing, I'm completely okay with that. Some people have great ideas, but sharing them in a public setting discourages them from participating. Also, once this thread is sufficiently old, I would rather new ideas come to me or in a new thread than thread necroing this one two years from now.



I'm glad you think I'm making things somewhat more comfortable, but whether you agree or disagree with any action by a current or previous staff member, I think it's important that we all realize that being staff is a volunteer gig and no one really does it for any reason other than wanting to make the game better. I'm as guilty as anyone in hating some decisions that have been made over the 20+ years of SK's existence, but it took me being involved in some of them that have been contentious on a personal level to really understand that just because I hate the decision, doesn't mean I need to hate the person that made it.

I know there isn't some miraculous difference between disliking the decision and disliking the person who made it, but I've found it incredibly limiting to come into a discussion already slanted against something because of the person involved, and moreover it's been a whole lot easier for me to find consensus on things operating from a "hate the action, not the actor" mindset.

I've been watching these forums for years, but have been largely silent because I felt that speaking up on any matter wouldn't matter at all. I first played SK nearly 17 years ago, and have played off and on, here and there since. I wanted to chime in because I feel I can contribute something to this conversation and share some food for thought. I happen to work in marketing for my company, thus I also feel I have some unique perspectives to add.



Trosis, you have some good ideas, however offering free boosts and goodies might entice some back in the short term, however long term the game may lose them again if the reasons they left in the first place haven't been addressed or are still persisting.

In essence, by offering goodies to get people to return all you're doing is addressing the symptom, not the underlying problem. One thing I can share, and I feel would help reveal the core of the problem is asking some of questions (no, I'm not expecting anyone to post answers to them):
1) WHY do people stop playing? WHAT was the catalyst behind that decision? Since players can answer a quick question at PC deletion (if they delete their PC and it's not auto deleted due to inactivity) the answers provided to that can help answer those questions, and provide that insight.
2) WHY do people decide to try out or return to the MUD? WHAT was the catalyst that encouraged them to give SK a try or return? Answering this will help understand player motives for playing and determine if the motives that the game is touting complement the motives of the players who come play. If a player leaves then it might help uncover a trending disconnect between player expectations vs. what the game turned out to be.

I think once it's understood why people are leaving and what's making them depart, AND why people try or return to the game and what was the factor was that affected that choice, then strategies and changes can be looked at to improve the playerbase, and the game, because then you're addressing the problem and not just the symptoms.



I agree, wholeheartedly. Matter of fact if there isn't an Imm who is supposed to see to advertising/marketing/promoting the MUD and building the player community, I think that such should be considered as a part of an Imm's role, or a new Imm or Angel position created whose sole job is to see to advertising/marketing/promoting the game. All the other MU* I've played (and in one case actually helped with) in the not-so-distant-past (less than 3 years ago) have had at least one staff member whose job was to take care of promoting the game. Many of those games are still going strong and have decent playerbases because someone is getting the word out about what's going on with the game, and encouraging people to come try it.

The other thing these games have in common is an out of game culture and playerbase that are respectful to each other, realizing that the character they see on screen is played by another person behind another keyboard. This doesn't mean that everyone always agrees, but the staff have also sought to foster a healthy out-of-game community.

However there's a bigger problem here and that is that SK has an image issue that it needs to resolve. Why do I feel that it does? I'd like to share the following that I dug up in less than a 1/2 hour of searching (including some thoughts on each link):

Top MUD Sites Player Reviews (you'll need to do a search for "Shattered Kingdoms" to bring up the SK related reviews): The latest reviews are from 2006. A lot has changed since then, and while it's nice to see how people felt about the game back then, there's nothing giving me an idea of what people think of the game 11 years since the last review was written. There isn't a single SK review on the Mud Reviews section of the forum, which contains current reviews.
Top MUD Sites details about SK: The general description is still good, but some of the details are obviously out of date. It's clear no one has taken the time to look at updating the MUD listing here.

MUD Connect Player Reviews: A few reviews, including one from last year. Looking at the review left last year the game sounds interesting, however the points made about the out-of-game issues paint a less-than-desirable picture. If I had never played the game prior and read that, it would make me have second thoughts about trying the game. The review from 2011, it's clearly a rant and not a review, and at least the SK staff answer from Dulrik was polite so that's a good sign. The other reviews are upwards of 10+ years old, so I'm not going to look them over because a lot has changed since then. While it's nice to see how people felt about the game back then, there's nothing beyond those two reviews giving me an idea of what people think of the game today.
MUD Connect details about SK: Much like Top Mud Sites, the general description is still good, but some of the details are obviously out of date. It's clear no one has taken the time to look at updating the MUD listing here.

MudStats SK Entry: This has been the most accurate of the sites with details on the game. Granted it's pulling in some reviews and details from Top Mud Sites, Mud Connect and some other sites, however its player count is far more accurate and the charts and graphs paint an interesting picture about player activity.

Reddit Thread #1 on SK: Looks like some people's first impressions are positive, however there's a comment there from someone who has played the game before and for some time (bottom comment): decent IC, but OOC it's horrible. Like above, if I had never played the game prior and read that, it would make me have second thoughts about trying the game because of the fact that the OOC community looks to be unhealthy.
Reddit Thread #2 on SK: Nothing really of value here. Only thing of real substance is the comment about a NPC bandit killing a lowbie on the road and them losing their equipment, and the pile of corpses also backstabbed to death while trying to get said equipment back. While the comment really isn't giving me any review material to base an opinion off of, it is still valuable information as it does express a pain point that some players have with the game, and that is valuable information that the Imms can use.
MUD Subreddit SK posts: Nothing of real value there beyond the two reviews noted above as anything else is 5+ years old and a lot can change in that time, though this subreddit would be a good spot to post regular promotions to.
Reddit SK posts: Nothing of real value there beyond what's been shared above as anything else is 5+ years old and a lot can change in that time.

SK Game Search: Outside of the links that point to the SK site, the links on the first few pages largely go to really old reviews and pages with details that haven't been updated in a very long time.
SK Logs Search: Because MUDs are text based, and the output from MUDs are easy to post online it's not hard to dig up game logs, and game logs can be a good way to get a feel for the game itself, and the playerbase. When I do a search for logs, amidst the various reviews that pop up (and in the top positions) is The-Log-Site-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named. If one looks at some of the logs in said site, including the commentary included at the top of the entry, it doesn't paint the prettiest of pictures about the player community. If you are able to look at the comments to the some of the postings they're just as bad as the SK forums use to be: unpleasant, toxic, and not the kind of thing that would attract me to try the game if that was my first impression of the SK community. In short the toxicity that used to permeate the forums here has migrated to the log site.

Reading what I've read, and seeing the lack of up to date details tells me that while the staff might be working on the game, nothing is being done to work on SK's public image and reputation. While it's great that the game is being improved, that's not going to mean much if what's being said about the game by others paints it in a less than pretty, and rather dated, light.



Algorab/Imm staff, since you seem to have identified a part of the issue, what is being done by the Imm staff to encourage people to return or try the game? Does the Imm staff plan on doing any MUD promotion on forums and sites to help drive traffic to the game, convince people to give it a try, and improve SK's image?

I feel that the staff shouldn't rely on players to do this promotion work for them, particularly with the image that SK has. This is something that I feel the staff need to address and get in front of.



I wasn't active during Thuban's ban-crusade as I decided to step away from the game about 4 years ago and only just decided to pop back in, however I will say that the out-of-game/out-of-character atmosphere here on the forums is much improved and far, far, far less toxic (a significant part of why I stopped playing several years back). If Thuban's ban-crusade is responsible for this much improved atmosphere, then I see it as a positive thing.

I'm reminded of a quote:
"The culture of any organization is shaped by the worst behavior the leader is willing to tolerate."
-- Steve Gruenert and Todd Whitaker, School Culture Rewired, ch. 3 (2015)

To me it sounds like the staff finally realized that the out-of-game culture was toxic, unhealthy, and driving players away (causing former players to relapse into inactivity and driving possible new ones away), and so sweeping changes were made by those who had the power to make them to better the game's community. It may not seem that way right now with the small playerbase, however before a festering wound can be healed, it needs to be cleaned of what's causing the issue. That ban-crusade, to me, looks to have cleared out players who were toxic members of the community and chronic cheaters even if they were well liked, veterans, and the cheating was a bunch of recurring minor infractions (cheating is cheating, just as toxic is toxic).

Is it comfortable or pleasant to watch? Not always, and yes it does hurt to see players you've played with for years be told that unless they change their ways that they're no longer welcome here. In the end though, it will be for the better of the game. What needs to happen now is the work to promote the game and change SK's image.

Keep in mind that after a "reboot" of the playerbase it's going to take time to win people back or convince people to try, even more so if the image the game has isn't the most positive to begin with. I think the MUD can gain some players, both new and returning, however there's a lot of work to get players to return or try the game.

My two coppers.

Edited: Fixed some typos.

Excellent research and analysis.
I'm on my phone so I can't type a novel, but I'll say a few things briefly.

Marketing and promotion of the game is essential, and you bring to light a lot of flaws. You have my vote for director of marketing. Lol

What makes SK great? The player-driven storylines and epic end-game adventures. All good PK is done with solid RP and that's where the storyline comes from. If so is going to thrive, we need a boom Of very active players. I would like to see vets return, as they will be able to quickly form feuds, wars, and enthralling storylines. The new influx of promotion players will eat up their RP and will stay for longer.
Having a few people trickle in here and there won't work if they have nobody to play with.
There needs to be a boom somehow.

As for Thuban's crusade? You make good points. But you aren't gonna have any trolls if you have zero players or people on the forums. The guy banned like 60% of the active playerbase. And another 15% quit due to lack of players and their friends getting unfairly banned with no 'realistic' chance at appeal.
I wish I could agree that Thuban cleaned up the toxic players. But I don't buy that. They removed "general discussion" which had a lot of trolling. They made it a forum rule to keep things game-related and all that. They've deleted troll-like forum posts.
So in regards to the forums being toxic, it wasn't Thuban. It was numerous other rule and policy changes.
What Thuban did was detrimental to the game. And we're sitting here discussing how to pick up the pieces.
I want to believe that Thuban did all he did for the improvement of the game, but I kind of don't believe that either. Being a volunteer, he had ooc grudges with players. And he used his seat of power to snoop, catch, and ban anyone for any sort of thing he could find.
I do not have proof of that, but it is honestly what I believe in my heart.

I want to see everyone come back to SK and have a thriving IC community. I could care less about the ooc community. The RP,PK,PVE is what the game is all about.
And I think the best way to fix what is broken is to get old players back all at the same time.
Idk. We're fighting an uphill battle. But at least we're discussing how to possibly fix things.

Cheers

Edit: ended up typing a novel. Incoherent rambling. But a novel nonetheless. Lol