Dulrik wrote:
This ought to be fixed now. Finney's first log in this thread, while no doubt frustrating, did not appear to be a bug and I still don't consider it to be a bug. The first time I read this thread, I focused entirely on the logs. I came back to this thread now and notice for the first time that there were suggestions for gameplay changes. Okay, so let's talk about it.
I don't think you should be able to open with a circle stab at any time. Sure, backstab is better, particularly with double backstab, but circle stab is still on the same damage level as a cleave. I can't remember the time when Finney says you could use it at will, but if we did change it away from that, it was no doubt because it proved to be overpowered (which I can believe).
Given that there do seem to be times when there aren't many choices for a rogues opening attack, what I'd be slightly more willing to do is make hamstring available as an opener in all situations. It has the benefit of hamstring making more sense as a way to run someone down who is trying to flee. And even though hamstring does equivalent damage to circle stab, it has another limitation which would become more relevant, in that you can't keep using it if you've already mangled both their legs.
Thoughts?
You could use circle to "open" with for several years. In fact, I recall Reorcyn doing so quite frequently and there was never a hue and cry for it to be nerfed. Hamstring is 'meh' at best - honestly, I could give you a whole laundry list of reasons, but I would rather just respond to the one reason you give for it being beneficial.
If people actually had to "run" to get away from PK, hamstring would be an attractive option. When you can escape PK with a simple "quaff recall" alias, hamstring is only average. If you mangle both legs, you can stop skills like bash and that is about the only reason I would ever use it. The problem I saw too frequently with hamstring in PvE was that both legs would get mangled, then I would switch to circle and sever a leg instead of getting a death blow. Whereas, in the same situation, three circles would nearly always kill something.
Then we have PK. You will kill something faster in PK by opening with dirt kick and then circling rather than leading with hamstring and then circling. There is simply no benefit to hamstring unless you plan to mangle both legs, but good luck with that when people spam quaff heal potions (which will heal their mangled limbs, too - making hamstring even more useless).
When was the last time a rogue dominated in PK? I am not talking about backstabbing clueless newbies that don't even know enough to completely neutralize a rogue by positioning a pet behind themselves. Why do the majority of players rank rogue at the bottom or the near the bottom of the of classes? The class is too easy to neutralize - despite all the hand-wringing about how OP they would become if circle were an opening attack. It's simply nonsense. Even with a change to circle, they will continue to be a bottom tier class.
You could make this change to circle and rogue would still be worse than sorcerers, necromancers, shamans, mercenaries, barbarians and scouts, IMHO. With or without this change, this class will still rely on reciting petrification scrolls (think about that for a moment) and killing pets/guards before they can ever lay a finger on a PC.
EDIT - I forgot the mention how fun it is to fight a necromancer that has 6 wraiths, with one of them positioned behind him. You only get a message that a "wraith" is blocking your attack. Obviously, my rogue would know which one is blocking, but as a player I do not. Or you are in a large scale PK and a "warhorse" is blocking your circle. No problem, right? Wrong! Which warhorse? The two that are in my party or one of the three in the enemy's party? I feel like I fighting against the interface more than other PCs most of the time in PK.
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