Shattered Kingdoms

Obviously I intended on adding cha to bards, though I am hesitant as to whether or not int is really needed. What would a good pking bard use in pk - scrolls, persuade, disguise. Does int factor into any of those? Not enough for it to matter imo. Maybe a little more int helps them out to some degree, but it isn't what I personally would do. For crappier bards, int sounds fine.

And Ghent - There is no reason to get nice stats other than pk. No characters stats, especially a casters, would ever stop them from killing a NPC. Get a grip on yourself there. Only a newb pker sorc would avoid maxing cha. Doesn't charm even have charisma involved in the roll?

After maxing art on a shaman/warlock/priest/sorc, I would definitely recommend using any points left (if there are any) to go onto hp. What else are you going to do, add to mana which has no practical impact on any pk? HP is where to go.

Unless I'm mistaken, int helps out with concentration on songs.

I personally would never use songs in pk. Silence + Sleep might seem like good ideas, but then you have to keep in mind that you can single handedly destroy a group with the use of persuade...but yeah.

You can, but in my experience persuade has been rather easy to resist (or I've just been lucky) and it takes a lot of energy to persuade. I am aware of how completely you can screw up a group if you are successful, but like anything, it would depend on the situation. Also, there may be times that you cannot see your targets to persuade them.

Edit: There are also several playstyles for bards (most classes actually). Chances are that each bard is better in certain scenarios.

It's as simple as that:

Bard needs int to concentrate on high level songs AND dances, especially if in melee, too.
Bard needs cha so that his song have some affect on his targets. Try to sing songs of sleep with a low cha bard, and the most you'll get is a yawn emote.
Bard needs dex, not only for his skills, but also to dance the high level songs. Make a centaur bard and have a good laugh.

So, Algon's list is totally wrong regarding bards.

Now, regarding scouts, scouts don't need cha? Yeah, sure, and he gets all this order lag he gets, making his pet, his only actual power, useless. And preventing himself from taming some pets at some levels, yeah, why would he need cha?

Scouts aren't going to be doing much useful in pk anyways imo. I guess cha is an option.

As far as bards: There is no need for intelligence. High level songs and dances in melee - only a newb bard imo will use songs or dances, and only a reaaaallly newb bard is ever in melee.

I clarified that I meant to add in cha for them, other than that - thanks

Gilgon, is that why you said they should train str? The only reason to have str is for combat. And you comment that only newb bards using songs during pvp, with a combination of two songs, obviously two bards, and some meat shields in front. We killed two groups that way. So, songs are very useful, it depends on what you need to happen in the battle. Int doesn't help with dancing to a song, it is all dex. Int is required to sing them though in the first place. I remember with Caladian when I was just starting I was barely into Smart and I couldn't even do songs of healing. Persuasion is to hit and miss with too much lag time to be truely effective in a massive pvp. It is better to use songs in many cases. Depends on how many casters there are.

Strength also means that you can carry far more. If you don't realize how important this is, specifically on a character who can use scrolls and is probably medium size - then good luck. I am pretty sure if I ever made a bard to pk, I would only use persuade, scrolls, and disguise in pk.

Gilgon, just drop it man. It is far too obvious that you have no idea of the bard's true powers. So, unless you play one and put those theories in action, I say your advice is crap. Songs are the only thing that really rule in a bard, and there is a good reason why a bard's prime stat is cha. Period.

Scouts do not need any intelligence at all unless they are in a cabal that uses spells they happen to want to cast. They don't need cha past the first rung of influential anyway, and really they only need it mid social if you get down to it, no reason to max it at all.

Most of algon's list looks good to me.

Personally the only things I find a hellion -needing- to max naturally is art and int. After that anything is just how you want to build him. Art and Int are the bare essentials.

I'm not even going to touch the bard argument but from seeing jugg's logs im going to assume he knows what hes talking about.

And dex is a very important stat for all classes that plan on being hit at anytime. I usually do mine -2 from max.