Shattered Kingdoms

Yep. You caught me. I totally was meaning summon a mass army of wraiths with animate scrolls.

Seriously, I'm done discussing the tactics on this board. It's absolute non-sense. You all act as if the soul spider is still the #1 charm and that mobiles HP/damage output is anywhere related to their level.

Okay whatever man, but i'm making one last response to this wonderful strategy of yours.

NUMBER 1: Scribing 20 of any spell will take a VERY long time and a LOT of money.
NUMBER 2: Should anyone actually bother doing this, spells are based off the SCROLL now, which means that no scroll short of the ones I mentioned before will be able to animate OR charm anything of decent level.
NUMBER 3: Also assuming anyone does this, the bard can have a max of 6 of these useful charmies (still a lot but whatever) since the others will be affected by the very same songs of sleep.
NUMBER 4: How is this strategy only usable by a bard? Any class that possess the scrolls skill can use it, meaning Sorcerers, Necromancers, Priests, Rogues ALL can use this amazing strat.
NUMBER 5: See number 1, the time requirement for this would be truly amazing even for limited numbers of this crap, between retrieving the only scrolls powerful enough to do anything, and getting a sorcerer to scribe them SUCCESSFULLY it would take near the TENS of hours for 1 PK.

So how exactly do you use this crap to signify a bards viability in solo pk? Man if ANYONE spends tens of hours to kill one person they deserve to die.

And yes, mobiles hp/damage IS related to their level. There are notable exceptions such as zombies, but for the most part yes. I can't think of a single low level NPC that would do any sort of decent damage to a high level character in good armor.

Edit: and by low level I mean under level 26, which is about what the regular scrolls can charm/animate/control.

We were talking about 1v1 viability...massive prep and being able to kill a target because of it doesn't mean 1v1 viability. A necromancer can destroy a whole groupful of paladins if they enchant all of their undeads armor...are they going to do it, and does that mean they good at killing groups of paladins? No it doesn't. Same thing applies here.

Okay. Let's repeat after me:

A bard is a support class.
A bard shouldn't be able to drop players in the fashion described above.
A bard can though.

A necromancer is not a support class.
A necromancer should be able to drop players in the fashion described above.
A necromancer requires even MORE time to raise all those undead than the bard does to attain a few equipped charms.

Remember, tanso steel armor is not hard to come by, nor are enchanted diamond/stone/tanso (or cold iron depending on target) weapons.

I know this because I have watched a necromancer gather a private store of armor and weapons for their undead each reboot.

Edit: And if no priest/sorc loves you, recite weapon a few times and you'll have some enchanted weapons.

I'm sorry if I have to disagree again that it takes longer for a bard to get someone to scribe x amount of scrolls then it does for a necromancer to raise the same number of undead.

And part of this whole discussion was about how to make bards more desirable, pointing out that they are a support class and shouldn't be able to kill anyone doesn't really help them along, nor does suggesting that they should be nerfed further because they can do so through massive preperation. Actually hell I'm not sure how this whole discussion started, I give up. /cry

Wait i'm just wondering about your last edit, are there actually in-game enchant weapon scrolls? Because if not...I'm not too sure how that helps since the sorcerer has to love to to scribe the crap (which is much harder) to begin with.

You can buy enchant weapon scrolls off a sorc. That is what I mean by he does not love you (ie willing to do it for you).

But as a bard -- you should be amazingly group-friendly and thus have lot so friends! Or did you forget that social engineering is the most useful skill of SK ever?

Songs of sleep needs a saving throw. Sorry. This is not massive prep. Massive prep is having to raise 30 wraiths and equip them. If you want to pk outside your class's originally defined parameters, don't half [REDACTED] it. A priest can mess you up pretty bad as well, if he does equal prep. Are you suggesting that harm and summon both should not have saves against? (Yes, harm is reduced by MP and can be fullout resisted same as any other spell).

Some sort of saving throw or lessening of effects is required for songs of sleep.

Shrug i'd be willing to stick with Salak's version of it (I still don't think its necessary and if its done bards need something else), as long as some form of the affect is always on the target no matter what, otherwise bards need shieldblock or more hp. Say...the singing version has no save but the dancing increase does (and once you fail you stay failed)? Otherwise a warrior will resist the first 2 rounds and the bard is dead anyway.

It shouldn't take long at all for a bard to get scrolls, it's called sing and dance songs of healing for the scriber.

Konrin, I don't think you understand that bards are not supposed to fight people 1 vs 1. That's not what the class is designed for. Bards are most effective in large 5+vs5+ fights.

Believe me I've done it, the success rate for scribe is still horrible.

Edit to Syndal's edit: I understand why they are here, and what they do perfect, but I give up on arguing this since its clear the 3 people that feel like agruing won't give up on their positions no matter what anyone else says about the class sucking without additional nerfs to their...*gasp* 5v5 (and 1v1, hell they deserve to SURVIVE long enough to run if they're not in a group by your standards I hope?) viability.

Grakus, I think the reason Konrin is getting frustrated with you, and I know the reason why I'm frustrated with you, is that you are claiming that bards are so simple to prep and primp for this elite PK.

What we are telling you, from personal experience and from observation is that they are NOT easy to prep for PK. This is especialy true for the examples you are citing to the rest of the board.

Give that line of arguing a rest. You're not making any sense there, and well, I've already said that discussing tactics isn't going to be worth our time. You've admitted it yourself, as well.

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To clarify, in case you were mislead, I'm not objecting to a saving throw on bard songs. I don't think it would be inappropriate to save for HALF on the affects of the songs (damage, modifiers, drains, whatever the affect of any given song is), however I am object to having enchantments (saving throws) completely nullify the song affects and thus render the bard useless.

Whatever changes come as a result of this thread, I'm almost willing to bet you will not see a drastic change in the way songs are implemented on SK. Very rarely does Dulrik make such a radical change when subtler, simpler alternatives are available. This is assuming that he even thinks songs are broken, despite whatever evidence/logs/etc we present. He may think it's balanced because of other factors we don't see/consider.