Shattered Kingdoms

I never said I can't attain the help I don't think...sure I can. But having useless songs would still make me a sad panda...or something.

I'm also fairly sure scouts and rogue both lie one notch above the bard hp pool - I know that my bard had absolutely suck for hp, and I tried to build him as a fighter,

Well, enchant/brew/scribe with a bard is the easiest thing to do. If timed correctly, you can keep your mana high all the time, sleeping before ticks in the inn and all. Using a mana battery item so that the bard will never run out of mana means endless brew/enchant/scribe.

So yes, the argument of having hard preparation on enchants/scrolls/potions as a bard is not exactly valid. I'd much rather brew for a bard 3 times the amount of potions I'd brew for any other char.

And I agree that songs of sleep are kinda overpowered - not their affect but the fact it is rather impossible to escape from them, similar to taunt. A save similar to songs of silence should be fine imo, after all the average PC is affected instantly by songs of silence and PCs w/ good enchants are affected after 2-3 lyrics usually.

Whoever said paladins and hellions have massive hp is crazy. Most mercs and barbs don't die in 10~ hits from another merc or barb. And, wtf, swashies do not get specialize. I wish, I would glady take my 6 hits with kamas without haste and 8 with haste. And I somehow doubt priests and shamans have more hp than bards, sanctuary/protection/SA just make it seem that way.

I was just too lazy to seperate mercs/barbs from pallies and hellions =/ Yes I know their hp pool ain't great.

And I meant finesse for swashies, silly me.

Agreed. Mercs and barbs should have massive hps. Paladins and hellions should have the hps scaled down by at least 3/4, if not half. Spellcasting makes up for the need to tank.

Bards/scouts/rogues, however, should have the same hp base.

Bards/scouts/rogues are all in the same range of HPs. AKA they are all better than any of the caster classes and all worse than any of the clergy classes. But the differences between each category are not as much as people make them out to be. And there is the possibility of bad luck on hit point roles as well although they tend to average out at high level.

I'm sure my last post didn't satisfy anyone regarding the actual topic of the thread. As people have pointed out, songs of sleep and silence work much the same way, but the secondary effect of sleep doesn't work on people fighting, so you don't see it very often. I could get behind the increased effect from dancing only taking effect after a failed saving throw as the "alternative" to being put to sleep (which can't happen while you are fighting).

Some things on this thread I can't fully agree on. For instance, persuade is not a junk ability. I've seen it used to great effect many times in the past. Someone said its way worse than charm, but that's not true - they are pretty much the same. The difference is that sorcerers invest heavily in art. That said, I'm not sure how it could have gotten worse against NPCs, who usually don't have saving throw buffed equipment.

Each song is designed to be pretty powerful, considering that it is the only action that a bard can be doing at the time. So it is kind of annoying that some people say that most of the songs are worthless. Certainly some are designed to be used in certain situations which don't come up as often, but that's not the same as useless.

Don't want your opponent getting away? Song of Dancing.
Fighting another bard? Countersong.

Songs of antimagic is the only one I can legitimately see as useless, especially after you get sleep and/or silence. So, I would like to entertain proposals for making it better. My idea would be to have it act as a weak dispel magic effect each verse that would not effect your group if dancing. I think this might make it appealing to use in group PvP, particularly for a few rounds at the start of combat, before switching to another song.

I'd argue that countersongs are probably the worst song the bard has in their repetoire. I've seen songs of antimagic used effectively.

I honestly don't know what the deal with persuade is, but I can post a log somewhere/email you Dulrik where a level 45-ish human priest NPC that is naked resists easily 75% of my level 45 bards persuade (23 cha, mastered skill, 6 art) Now I haven't played a sorcerer in a while, but I don't recall it being anywhere near that with charm person.

The other problem I really have with persuade is that unlike charm person you can't flee from the initial combat round (no lag time) and thereby stopping the NPC from being agro on further entrance to the room. The way it works for bards is that you get one chance to persuade, if it fails you have to kill the NPC and wait for a repop, and there are decreasing numbers of decent buffing NPCs it seems. For PK, I can't really comment yet as I haven't really participated in much yet, so I'll say something about that later on.

In defense of my saying the songs being useless, I'll go down the list and disagree with myself somewhere, disagree with you elsewhere.

songs of protection - Pretty decent song, but really made obsolete by songs of sleep, as it has greater effects, and more of them.

songs of war - Nice song, no real complaints here if you want to hit more/do more damage. Although there are very few situations where you would use this rather then the damage reducing effects of songs of sleep, but still usable.

songs of healing - Love it, no complaints.

songs of death - The damage on it is entierly too low, or at least easily countered by MP. I'm not sure if the damage need to be raised, but perhapse you could make it completly unaffected by magical protection, that would make it a viable song otherwise anyone with even brass from nerina fully resists all of its damaging effects. The PE drain and Mana drains are nice, but maybe also a bit low.

songs of antimagic - As you said, made obsolote by songs of silence, the dispelling effect would surely be nice.

countersongs - I haven't had a chance to test this against another bard yet (so damn few of them) however I imagine this too would be made obsolete by songs of silence. Either you just shut the other bard up and the other spellcasters, or if they're already singing songs of silence you can't open your mouth to say anything anyway.

songs of dancing - Nice song, no complaints.

songs of magic - Nice for summoning and such, no complaints.

songs of sleep - Love it.

songs of silence - Love it.