Shattered Kingdoms

I'm really trying hard not to verbally smack you upside the head for this. Did I object to griffon enmity with necromancers? No. Enmity is not A DRIVING PERSONALITY FORCE. It is a *facet* of a character. Altruism is the core of a personality and character. Forcing altruism is forcing every single griffon character ever made to be exactly the way you want them to. THAT is what is stupid. So, once more: Enmity is a *facet* that can wan or wax; altruism is the core of a character personality/concept.



Then go on your merry little way playing only altruistic griffons. STOP trying to force everyone to your paradigm.



It had nothing to do with altruism.

It is only entertaining that you display your mentality as an attraction once again, OA, but truly, this is only entertaining. Your "no"s do not include any valid argument (not very original of you I may add as well) and only make your case worse. Seriously, you have more chances for the Griffons not to be considered as altruists if you don't post.

Oh no! An Appeal To Ridicule! Whatever shall I do?

*QQs all the way home.*

There's actually been quite a bit of in character changes to back up the change to griffons. Very few people really play them as the gangly awkward altruistic naive pets of Zavijah that they used to be. There are IC books which state that griffons were not created, so here's the ability for rp to change the world that is SK.
If you have old school skism, fine, play your griffon as you like. However just as no one will ever rp the character the same way, no one should be forced to abide by old school beliefs, especially when there is rp that's been in motion for over (what is it close to two) RL years now to change it.
Hardcoding rp and making everyone follow a certain mental aspect (such as altruism or being naive) doesn't achieve anything but the death of a race. I've had multiple characters that broke every rule in the book and played scrupulous probably against "code", but it was my rp and as long as an imm doesn't step in and say "You're doing it wrong" and hell me, there's no reason we can't play as we choose. What you're asking is to hard code a race to a certain standard, one which not everyone will agree on. The reason I've never played a paladin, where I have a griffon, is because I can't stand just the principled supposed altruism. I can't be nice just for niceness sake, and you will always find people who are going to push the limits of rp and want to evolve it.
Has anyone forgotten the griffons in death or the harlequins? People who truly want to rp can pull off anything (ie a lightie of Sargas in the MC). So why don't you check into how griffons have evolved icly, read up on what's been done icly, and seriously let the rp evolve and grow. I miss some of the aspects of the old days, but seriously, things change. You change with the rp or you take steps, ICLY to change it back. Oocly hardcoding things will only damage the ic atomosphere that some people have been working hard for, for a long time.

"There are IC books which state that griffons were not created, so here's the ability for rp to change the world that is SK."

Absolutely. And having been part of the project that created the core book, I can vouch this was intended to be an alternate theory and not a replacement. I also note that unlike the old help file, the proposed one at least acknowledges that alternate theories exist.

Now if most Pyrathians have been convinced of griffons' natural origins, that's a good catch of a mistake. I agree such RP shouldn't be arbitrarily reversed. But I question whether that's really the case.

"There's no reason we can't play as we choose."

Well, yes there is. I'm sure you'd object to a sprite that was 12 feet tall without magic. If there are to be racial traits, then there has to be a standard we can all check against. Otherwise, race has no meaning besides what each individual would have it. Such disagreements don't make for good storytelling. If instead there are no racial traits to speak of, what's the roleplay value in having races at all?

I'm not advocating that no character ever bend the help files. I'd note that the examples you mention - a Death griffon or a Harlequin griffon - don't even do that. Altruistic does NOT equal principled. Wanting to help people doesn't dictate who or how you help.

I am saying that removing altruism from the help file was a mistake, and it's a recent enough mistake that it can still be corrected without much upheaval. So a generation or two of PC griffons averaged a bit more selfish than the norm. *shrug*

I think you've a better point with the naivete. That is a new addition. It was an attempt to encourage newbies to roleplay the WIS penalty and low maturity age. But I've no quarrel if this section is thrown out as overly restrictive.

Racial traits don't mean personality. If that was the case, then you're speaking in stereotypes and that's just...not for good rp either. Each griffon like each and every other member of other races has their own personality. I'm not talking about alignment, I'm talking about letting them choose as they see fit what to follow and how. There are certain racial traits you must abide by, size restrictions ect that are hardcoded. However, not all are and saying all griffons must behave this way as a race in general is just..incorrect. No one should be cookie cutter just because they have a specific race.

Thanks for the comments. I've made the first round of edits. While some were just punctuation or needless word removal, I direct attention to the significant changes:

* Griffon-culture paragraph 3 no longer uses the word altruism, which was being taken in a much stricter sense than it was ever played. Instead, what this trait would mean in practice is spelled out a bit. The word "altruistic" is still used in the proposed "help griffon" file.

(While I hope this alleviates objections - and I'm happy to hear suggestions for further tuning - I do intend to submit this with altruism included. The imms can always take it out if they find it too restrictive.)

* Griffon-culture paragraph 4 tones down expectations for griffons to be naive. It is now phrased as a suggestion for young griffons, and older griffons are not mentioned.

* Griffon-culture paragraph 5 is more explicit that the alternate story about griffons is not generally accepted by Pyrathia as a whole. The previous version could easily be read as not generally accepted by griffons, and that's not giving the story enough credit.

Further comments are quite welcome.

I hadn't noticed, until Forsooth brought it up, that altruism had been removed from the griffon help file. I'm not entirely sure why it was removed, but I do think it helped define the race.

The griffon is a very newbie-friendly race in its makeup, with built-in basic protection and weapons, not to mention flight and stamina for exploring, but in concept it is one of the worst played I have seen - just from a lack of depth in understanding. The more complete the help files can be made, without necessarily forcing personalities and styles into one bland mold, the better. I think a lot of good input has been included in this updated proposal.

As far as changing it, I would suggest an addition: specify the strongest alternate theory of griffon origin, just to help newbs out with designing their characters. Mention that it's a most commonly held belief among certain clans of griffon-kind, but put it out there as something that enough griffons have believed to make it well-known.

Yes, there ARE RP restrictions regarding how you play one of a race. You CAN'T play a good and gentle deep-elf, you CAN'T play a scholar giant, you CAN'T play a submissive centaur and you CAN'T play a selfish griffon. All the rest that some claim here, at least in my eyes, are excuses so that they can attain freedom to break those rules in their game.

so if griffon's can only be good...if we wanted to play an evil one couldn't we make an evil type there are a few in the kingdoms...can't remember the names of them, its like hellgryf or something like that...I mean it would be cool if griffon's weren't always good....