Charm person

Baldric · **Posted:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:11 am

Sorcerers wouldn't suck, even if you completely took away the application of charm person on pcs. They'd still be a very strong class.

Parnys · **Joined:** Mon May 02, 2005 12:50 pm **Posts:** 400

Because they can charm an NPC to act as a warrior for them. You're splitting hairs when the problem is that they need Charm Person in the first place. They can run away, but they have to have a meleer to fight a meleer. Short of blinding someone with Colorspray, the rest of your spells do vastly inferior damage compared to melee.

Let me just get my herb that increases my spell damage.
Oh, no? Well, how about I enchant my weapon and- Still no?

Nope. We enchant gear for a charm and let it do most of the work for us. Sorcerers are glorified cheerleaders leading their charm around to do all of the work for them. At least Charm Person on PC requires a bit more thought than "I choose you, Lathron! Rape his face off!" About as much thought as all of those melee skills I've mentioned, with the added drawback of being able to WALK OUT OF THE ROOM TO AVOID THEM ENTIRELY.

But no, spellcasters are obviously overpowered because they have a 1 in 100 chance of taking you and themselves out of a fight, releasing all of their undead and eating popcorn or sitting around and being totally useless as a warlock. Does anyone even bother using Resist Elements anymore?

Turon · **Joined:** Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:33 pm **Posts:** 861

Parnys' first argument: Charm is not overpowered wrote:

Parnys wrote:

Charm Person is not overpowered, even if you like to think that getting junked by a sorceror is stupid.

Baldric wrote:

Yeah. . .charm person has low casting time, is very difficult to resist, and if you're hit with it, you're screwed . . .
And it can be scribed. . .
Now that I'm not very active, I think this spell needs a nerf. I know this has been discussed before, but I figured I'd make the thread anyway.

Nightwing wrote:

To my knowledge, there are no other skills, spells, or items in the game that result in instant loss of all control / skills, with no possibility for retaliation or escape.

Achernar wrote:

I am an advocate of removing charm from scribing, wands, and prespelled scrolls. I was an advocate of this when charm was changed last winter. I don't think those changes work without that additional tweak. I'm pretty sure I can help with the prespelled scrolls and wands. The scribe factor will probably require Dulrik.

jhorleb wrote:

I was the one that recently got lucky in landing a charm on Edoras' character (and thus stand to lose if charm is nerfed).

I agree that charm is overpowered.

Parnys' Second argument: Charm can be easily resisted wrote:

Parnys wrote:

As it stands, a sorcerer has exactly seven options to kill you. Toss magic missiles at you, toss acid, toss color, petrify, charm (be it through Lathron or directly) delete their character or scrolls from a different class entirely.

If you die to the first four, your gear isn't nearly as good as you think it is or you have no hands and you broke your nose trying to play a Hunter earlier.

Meh, this counter-quote was in Favorite quotes. JvJ's gnome priest with 36 willpower got charmed by a scroll.

JeanValjean wrote:

It was 36 willpower, and a strong level scroll. FML

Parnys' third argument: Bash and cleave are just as good as Charm wrote:

Parnys wrote:

Mercs have exactly three skills, all with no cast time, and it's all they need to kill any spell casting class in the game. With a cleave and a pet, you, too, can emulate the mighty Merc with giant strength and a reaching weapon.

Edoras wrote:

Bash - Put someone in front of you, it's that easy. Or heck, just put yourself in front of a pet and order it to rescue you once you get bashed, now that you can order while prone.
Cleave - This has a -very- small chance of crit killing someone, and requires the cleaver being A) in the front row to hit someone in 2nd, or B) being in the second row to hit someone in the first. You can also used ranged combat to start the hellion pulse racing or just get the first blow.

Parnys' fourth argument: Charm is not OP against NPCs wrote:

Parnys wrote:

Charm Person lets you have your very own meleer so that you don't instagibb when a real one looks at you.

Edoras wrote:

As Konge has said, charm is perfectly fine against NPCs, but against PCs it's completely overpowered and overwhelms any other single spell that can be cast or scribed.

Parnys' Final argument: Charm Person can be avoided wrote:

Parnys wrote:

Want to avoid Charm Person? Walk out of the room when they start casting. Spells, unlike melee, can be avoided just that easily.

Minette wrote:

re: scrolls, weak scrolls of charm person is okay, however one might debate that the cast time is potentially 0 there, but that's where enchants come in! rng needs to happen sometimes even if it's 1 out of x

what is a problem though, is that players buy strong powered scrolls of something else and then scribe an offensive spell on it, and thus giving the spell an incredible strength to use in combat >_<

What I don't understand is why you openly state that you A) don't PvP in anything other than gank squads and B) You don't even give real thought to other people's posts, yet at the same time you actually feel that your arguments are sound.

I mean really, a couple posts ago you actually -complained- that magic missile isn't viable against warrior PCs. I mean seriously.

grep · **Joined:** Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:50 pm **Posts:** 5522

The loss of charm scrolls will forever change the landscape of intimate roleplay.

I hope you're happy, Turon.

Parnys and I are now on borrowed time.

Baldric · **Posted:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:21 am

Parnys wrote:

WALK OUT OF THE ROOM TO AVOID THEM ENTIRELY

So charm isn't OP because you can run away from the sorc? Why not just sit in a random wilderness spot where nobody will find you?

Not to mention you can't run away from scrolls, and it's not always viable from an rp or pk perspective to just run away from your enemy.

Also, I think it's preferrable to be able to run around with two GM barbs, at absolutely no risk to myself (because I'm either third row or ethereal). I'd take that over being a GM barb/merc any day.

Konge · **Posted:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:57 am

Quote:

Nope. We enchant gear for a charm and let it do most of the work for us. Sorcerers are glorified cheerleaders leading their charm around to do all of the work for them. At least Charm Person on PC requires a bit more thought than "I choose you, Lathron! Rape his face off!" About as much thought as all of those melee skills I've mentioned, with the added drawback of being able to WALK OUT OF THE ROOM TO AVOID THEM ENTIRELY.

But no, spellcasters are obviously overpowered because they have a 1 in 100 chance of taking you and themselves out of a fight, releasing all of their undead and eating popcorn or sitting around and being totally useless as a warlock. Does anyone even bother using Resist Elements anymore?

Have you actually given that any thought? I mean, wow.

First, spellcasters are not overpowered per se - some aspects are, with the numero uno being charm. Walking out of the room to avoid them? Wow. Sorcs can fly and have mirror images as well as access to ethereal wands - if any class should be able to cheat death and escape anything, it's a sorc.

Not to mention that this argument is exactly what has sparked the argument that charm's casting time should be vastly increased.

You also seem to think that it is impossible to maintain two charms... Having Lathron, and then charming someone offensively will not put you out of the fight - not at all. Lathron will still be pounding, as will your new consort. Not to mention devices, all of which sorcs have access to.

And yes, having a crappier melee machine in a charm is by far a safer option than being a melee machine yourself - head to head combat isn't the only thing you should bear in mind when considering PK viability.

jhorleb · **Posted:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:54 pm

Thanks for the attention on this, Achernar. I'll be sad to see charm made "unscribable" entirely, but I see how that is probably the simplest solution.

As you're making recommendations to Dulrik, please see if the casting time and saving throw can be brought in line with petrification. That will balance it for PC vs. PC combat but leave it largely unchanged for charming NPCs. Otherwise, you'll have fixed the scroll problem but left the much more powerful (albeit slightly less instantanous and more restricted class-wise) version of the spell in its broken state.

Just postulating here based on anecdotal experience, but I imagine a 14 art caster would hit 50% probability of success on a 20 wisdom, 20-25 willpower character. Given its short cast time, this means virtually guaranteed success in 1-2 rounds against said character. That, IMO, is overpowered.

grep · **Joined:** Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:50 pm **Posts:** 5522

Now that you bring saves up, it'd be fun if paladins got themselves an Aura of Courage.

evena · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:39 am

grep wrote:

Now that you bring saves up, it'd be fun if paladins got themselves an Aura of Courage.

This would be ridiculous, as most paladins don't deserve it.

furtive_death · **Joined:** Thu Mar 21, 2002 5:26 pm **Posts:** 158

This thread should be called QQ Im a walking [REDACTED] QQ.

I seriously hate this attitude towards the game, it makes me wonder why -I- haven't come on here kicking and screaming about a skill every time I got ganked back in the day.

Oh yeah, I know why. Cause its a game, and I like the challenge. I like to think and work around things, not attack a skill on the forums based on getting ganked by it in one instance where someone was prepared and ganked my [REDACTED] with a scroll. Even if it was multiple instances.

Imagine if people complained in poker that a royal flush beats a full house.

Here's an idea, lets change the rules and make everyone the same. It'll save everyone time in character creation. And also lets wear collars that shock us when we have intelligent thoughts while playing, wouldn't want an uneven playing field.

Shattered Kingdoms

Charm person

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