the Undead hoards.

Baldric · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:42 pm

Sometimes I do wonder if necros were hit too hard with the nerf bat. I usually find myself thinking this after I dismantle necromancer armies with ease and then teabag the necromancer repeatedly and viciously. I have to say that they are fine as they are, though. The undead army is just a difficult tactic to pull off against certain opponents. Necromancers have other things in their skillset that make them an absolutely great class even if you take wraiths out of the equation, and in some circumstances wraiths completely own.

I think that undead tower in the north with infinite jade battle axes and hunting spears is just too much, though. Especially now that battle axes have the massive weapons bonus. It seems these days that necromancers don't have to spend any time at all to come out with a prepped and deadly army.

Tragonis · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:44 pm

The weapons are not enchanted though. A good necro will take the time to get durable weapons. I always prefered the energy battle whips that are so plentiful. Not to mention a certain awesume undead d0rf that tanks super well. Don't forget to use your maledictions and buff your NPCs.

Teh_Peso · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:47 pm

and type o all berserk

skivg2011 · **Joined:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 95

For everyone who talks about necromancers, I will put this here as an example of why necromancers are hilariously worse than a warlock:

A GM necromancer's undead vs. level 12 cockroaches in the sewers of exile:

Quote:

An East-West Tunnel in the Sewers
A glossy coating can be seen reflecting against the walls due to a faint
light source coming from both the east and west. The air grows increasingly
thick and clammy as the tunnel winds onward to the east and starts to
saturate your skin with an unpleasant stickiness. The reek here is nearly
unbearable and causes your eyes to water and almost makes you regret taking
your next breath of air. Muffled scraping sounds along with the unsettling
of the pool below you can be heard echoing off the walls of the sewers all
around you.
Obvious exits: e w rift
The corpse of a Peacekeeper soldier is lying here.
The severed finger of a Peacekeeper soldier is here.
A throwing spear has been left here.
A magical rift is glowing violently in the mid-air.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A wolf-like creature stands here, snarling and spitting in rage.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A strange-looking woman is here.
A nervous male human is here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
You see a large cockroach, clinging to the walls.
You see a large cockroach, clinging to the walls.
A black bat is flying overhead.
You see a large cockroach, clinging to the walls.
A black bat is flying overhead.
Officer Chirk walks in from the east.
A fastidious female sprite darts in from the east.

[HP:100%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]
>
A fastidious female sprite utters the words, 'parl xafe'.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath MANGLES a black bat!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath DEMOLISHES a large cockroach!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath DEMOLISHES a black bat!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a large cockroach!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath DEMOLISHES a large cockroach!
A repugnant male sprite yells 'Huards! A f`stidjous gemald sprise is trxing to
murder me!'
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath breaks a repugnant male sprite's
mirror image.
A nervous male human's ward of protection vanishes.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath wounds a nervous male human.
The blessing on Aphrominas the faceless nymph's armor vanishes.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath mauls Aphrominas the faceless nymph.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** ANNIHILATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A wraith collapses to the ground.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite utters a word of divine power!

[HP:100%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]
>
A fastidious female sprite recites something.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** ANNIHILATES *** a black bat!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a large
cockroach!
A large cockroach is mortally wounded, and will die soon, if not aided.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a black
bat!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a large
cockroach!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a large
cockroach!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath breaks a repugnant male sprite's
mirror image.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath injures a nervous male human.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath wounds Aphrominas the faceless nymph.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
A wraith's hand is skillfully severed from its arm.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
You hear a wraith's death cry.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
You hear a wraith's death cry.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
You hear a wraith's death cry.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
You hear a wraith's death cry.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
You hear a wraith's death cry.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
A wraith's foot is skillfully severed from its leg.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A pitch-black hunting spear falls out.
A long hunting spear falls out.
A fastidious female sprite utters a word of divine power!

[HP:100%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]
>
Your ancestral spirits rain curses upon a nervous male human as he charges you.
A nervous male human's freezing bite slightly singes your left arm.
You dodge a nervous male human's attack.
You parry a nervous male human's attack.
Your ancestral spirits rain curses upon a nervous male human as he charges you.
A nervous male human's freezing bite slightly singes your chest.
You dodge a barghest's attack.
A large cockroach misses you.
You dodge a black bat's attack.
You dodge Aphrominas the faceless nymph's attack.
Your ancestral spirits manifest, but Aphrominas the faceless nymph charges
through them.
Aphrominas the faceless nymph pounds your chest, barely wounding you.
Your ancestral spirits rain curses upon Aphrominas the faceless nymph as she
charges you.
Aphrominas the faceless nymph pounds your face, slightly bruising your cheek.
A large cockroach is mortally wounded, and will die soon, if not aided.
A black bat misses you.
Your ancestral spirits manifest, but a large cockroach charges through them.
A large cockroach tries to bite at your left leg, but its blow is deflected by
some gleaming silver-gilt armor-plated boots.
Overall, Aphrominas the faceless nymph has quite a few wounds.

[HP: 97%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]
>
A repugnant male sprite recites a red leather scroll of petrification,
petrification.

[HP: 97%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]
>
A fastidious female sprite quickly jumps out of the way as a nervous male human
kicks dirt into the air.

[HP: 97%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]
>
You slice at Aphrominas the faceless nymph's left hand, cutting a small wound.
You slice at Aphrominas the faceless nymph's chest, barely scratching her.
You slice at Aphrominas the faceless nymph's stomach, barely scratching her.
You dodge a barghest's attack.
A barghest misses you.
You dodge a nervous male human's attack.
You dodge a nervous male human's attack.
A nervous male human misses you.
You parry a nervous male human's attack.
A large cockroach misses you.
A black bat misses you.
Your armor protects you from the physical affects of Aphrominas the faceless
nymph's bash.
You dodge Aphrominas the faceless nymph's attack.
Aphrominas the faceless nymph misses you.
Aphrominas the faceless nymph misses you.
Your shield blocks Aphrominas the faceless nymph's attack.
A large cockroach is mortally wounded, and will die soon, if not aided.
A black bat misses you.
A large cockroach misses you.
Overall, Aphrominas the faceless nymph has quite a few wounds.

[HP: 97%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]
>
o chirk dirt aph
Aphrominas the faceless nymph quickly jumps out of the way as Officer Chirk
kicks dirt into the air.
Ok.
A fastidious female sprite holds something in her hand.

[HP: 97%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]
>
A fastidious female sprite recites something.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a black
bat!
A black bat is DEAD!!
A black bat's heart is wrenched out of its body.
A fastidious female sprite gets 5 silver coins from a corpse of a black bat.
A fastidious female sprite gets 5 copper coins from a corpse of a black bat.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a black bat.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a large
cockroach!
A large cockroach is DEAD!!
You hear a large cockroach's death cry.
A large cockroach's body dissolves into a shower of sparks.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a black
bat!
A black bat is DEAD!!
You hear a black bat's death cry.
A fastidious female sprite gets 3 silver coins from a corpse of a black bat.
A fastidious female sprite gets 6 copper coins from a corpse of a black bat.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a black bat.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a large
cockroach!
A large cockroach is DEAD!!
You hear a large cockroach's death cry.
A large cockroach's body dissolves into a shower of sparks.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a large
cockroach!
A large cockroach is DEAD!!
You hear a large cockroach's death cry.
A large cockroach's body dissolves into a shower of sparks.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath breaks a repugnant male sprite's
mirror image.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath injures a nervous male human.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath wounds Aphrominas the faceless nymph.
A fastidious female sprite utters a word of divine power!

[HP: 97%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]

In under a round, they are all dead, yet the cockroaches survive for another HW. They would have had more uses in the past with them not being capped, but now? Animated undead are 100% useless for PVP other than as a distraction - anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or has an ulterior motive to keep them nerfed.

A 30 second code fix to this would be simple: buff wraith HP 25-35%, remove dispel from affecting them OR uncap the amount once again. You don't need them stupid-powerful like the days of old, but a necro should be able to fight better than a sorcerer can. Lathron is worth 8 wraiths in a fight easily, and won't run away when a HW or two is cast. What other real damage spells do necromancers even possess other than undead? FoD - That's it. Energy drain is the only other alternative and it is the easiest to resist of all the necro's spell set. Sorcs get to choose from petrification, acid blast, and even colorspray. Why on earth play a necromancer when a sorc is vastly superior in PVP, has awesome utility, and can't be bolt of gloried to boot?

Till then a necro must:

1) Rely on shrink/enlarge, enchant weapon, armor/resists for each undead to prep -- all of which necromancers do not have
2) Do it all under an hour (when the undead fall back to the ground)
3) In a fight resist the 90000 ways you can kill a necromancer in under 2 rounds: direct hits, circlestab/backstab, holy word suddenly leaving him in front rank (all animates/controls dispelled), arrows/ranged, spells, etc etc
4) Finish the fight before 2 holy words can be cast, in this case there are even scrolls of holy word. Why not make a bolt of glory staff while we're at it?

No other caster has to worry about this defense AND offense to boot because they all get some form of protection, whether its mirror image or etherealform or stoneskin or ironguard or ...and the list goes on and on.

FoD is far too easy to resist and that's a whole other topic. Necromancers are a joke and that is precisely why no competent player has made one in the past several years that anyone actually was afraid of.

Seriously, name me a power-horse necromancer in the last 2 years who was more vicious to face than someone like Pilnor, Vaalim, or Baba?

Edit: Just to preempt, I know you can get some of these things via scrolls or wands, but my point is that no other class has to do so much preparing, rely on so many others, and still get absolutely decimated in 2-3 rounds of combat.

I challenge Dulrik himself to make a necromancer and try to kill Baldric's dwarf, Tarconus. If he can succeed in doing this, I will relent that necromancers are perfectly balanced. This isn't because I'm being :smug: it's because I don't think many folks understand how difficult/silly it is to be a necromancer. But then again, I also think the same way about warlocks now too.

So this maybe moot.

Tragonis · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:23 pm

Give them willpower, or better yet magical resistant armor. There is some easily available out there you can deck them out with. Sanctuary wands/staves are your friend as well.

Tragonis · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:24 pm

Oh, and a shield stave.

Tragonis · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:27 pm

GDI, don't make me roll another Necromancer. They are amazingly awesome. Hell the holy word wasn't dispelling one buff, which tells me you did not buff them at all. That is just pure lazy.

Not to mention that necromancers are the ONLY class that get to dominate pretty much 95% of all PvE.

Complain about spells? Are you kidding me? You have FEAR. That spell rocks the socks off anything a Sorc has.

Gilgon · **Joined:** Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:18 pm **Posts:** 1704

Don't make me create another necro again. They own so hard it makes the game boring.

Wimps to necros since I rolled the mud 2ish years ago as Olian:

1) Animate dead wands were removed
2) Charm is no longer scribable
3) Animates are limited to 8 instead of the 20 I used to roll with.
4) Zap/recite/brandish require concentration.

Buffs to necros since I rolled the mud 2ish years ago as Olian:

1) Mood defensive was wimped, meaning people die even faster.
2) Mood aggressive was buffed, meaning people are much more likely to be on mood aggressive and die even faster.
3) Massive weapons were buffed, meaning your animates do more damage.
4) Massive weapons were buffed, meaning people are much more likely to wear 2h weapons and die even faster.
5) Animates last twice as long.
6) Bounty NPCs were severely wimped.
7) Imba new pro-caster items like mirror image scripts exist.

Controls and animates save on logout.

In my opinion, necros have been wimped - but only by a small amount. They are still the strongest class in the game by far.

Tragonis · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:31 pm

There are still animate dead wands, n00b.

skivg2011 · **Joined:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 95

I encourage you all to roll a fearsome necromancer.

Rock Sk with its power and prove everyone wrong that they are perfectly fine.

So us how a single necromancer can rock 3-4 players easily.

Then please do that with warlocks. Look, I'm not saying they are the worst class, I'm simply saying there's no reason to play a necro over a sorc.

Edit: Also please don't red-herring the argument about holy word vs undead. It's obvious that unless you rely on a limited quantity set of wands/staves - the basic ability to fight the opposite aura (paladin/good priest) is next-to-impossible given your native spellset.

Also, no one addressed the wraiths having less HP than the cockroaches. They have around 500 hp, usually, based off the fact I can kill them in under 3 heals.

Shattered Kingdoms

the Undead hoards.

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