Shattered Kingdoms

Saying that "There's just as easy an argument to be made about it being valid tactical obfuscation IC as it can be made a problem with the interface" doesn't mean that they shouldn't. It's saying an argument could be made that they don't see it. Just as the same, equal, opposite argument could be made it's a problem with the interface which you're making.

Yes, what I said is circular logic. That's the point. You can't say "it can be seen, so we should be able to see it" as good logic for change and then in the same breath deride "it can't be seen, so it shouldn't be able to be seen" as a bad defense. Well, you can, because you did, but still.

So if I get this right, you're saying that right now, the ability to use that trigger class wouldn't be useful so it shouldn't be made, right? Why is it not useful - because you can already target those NPCs because you know the target name? So, if glance shows you the target name, the trigger suddenly becomes useful then? Because...you know the target name? It would be as useful later as it would be now. It takes the same time to determine who's in front by typing glance, and then typing the target. It would just tell you the exact target if glance is modified, now, for EVERYONE instead of disallowing necromancers to have all the fun.

Muktar - if you glance the PC instead of NPC, it'll tell you who's infront of and behind it. Just make that say 3.wraith or 5.wraith, and you can have 35 wraiths in the room and know exactly which one you want.

The arguments for and against it all boil out in the wash, except for the ability to potentially overwhelm a tanking target without any use of tactical observation or knowledge-gaining required by glance. That's one that hasn't been yet met logically with a counter-offer, so my opposition stands. You can overwhelm a PC now, sure, but the difference is tanks aren't always PCs, and NPCs are a lot squishier. If the idea is to require tactics and keep combat at a certain pace, a front modifier is counter-productive. Will you also allow shoot and ranged-target spells to be affected by the front.target change, or will those not be allowed? If you allow them, then you are affecting quite a bit without the need for glance or strategy.

That's honestly the only thing a change like this would affect if made a modifier instead of fixing kill alone or modifying glance. I'm now beginning to rethink my stance on X.NPC being able to be seen from glance. I think it's a pretty good idea now.

Jerinx, in the glance it doesn't give you 3.wraith or whatnot now. If you tried to do that, you would be hitting a random wraith. Unless you are talking about enhancing glance and then you still are NOT playing the game but gaming the system.

See my response to Muktar's post. It explains why it would not be useful.

My argument is as follows, which is not circular:

1. Our characters can see the enemy formation and therefore know which specific NPC is standing in front of or behind a target, if there are multiple NPCs with the same name, adjective or short description in the room.
2. Since our characters have this information, it would beneficial to us as players if the MUD provided us an easy way to access this information instead of requiring us to spend precious time glancing at 3 to 8 different NPCs and hoping one doesn't die in the interim to alter the formation and have to spend even more time using glance (the fight is likely over by this point anyway).

This is not circular.

Your argument is circular:

1. If your character knew which one it was, then the output would indicate it.

Which simply begs the question.

Muktar - how is that gaming the system? If you have a group of 9 NPCs/PCs with unique names, you need to use glance to find your tank you want if you want to target/kill whoever is infront of X without engaging them first (using throw, dirt kick). You have to make the effort to find the tank of your target in every circumstance if you don't use dirt kick or throw (attacks that actually can reach and hurt a target buried in any formation no matter how obfuscated or deep, unlike kill/etc). I was talking about enhanced glance. If you have a group of 9 NPCs with the same names, and using glance to try to glean the tank without engaging wouldn't be gaming the system. It's just tactics of figuring the enemy formation.

It's a functional philosophy about how formations are that's in question here. If it's tight-knit, and static, unable to be spread out or used tactically to obscure the formation - then kill front should be implemented. Then maybe give some classes an "obscure formation" skill that randomizes kill front.

But if it's not that, and it's more spread out and fluid, then kill front should not exist and glance should be necessary if you don't use dirt/throw/ranged attack X to initiate a specific target.


Finney- Your response to Muktar's post in no way explains anything why the trigger system would be any more useful with enhanced glance (3.wraith is infront of noob, 5.wraith is behind noob) than it is now (entirely not useful). In case I wasn't clear, I apologize - the entirety of my supposition was with enhanced glance in play for the most part. You wouldn't have to glance at every NPC to find the tank of a PC. You just target the PC with a glance, see X.NPC, and go. If they change the formation or some obnoxious waste of time on their part, it's 1 more glance. The trigger version of front/back would in no way change from "enhanced glance" being implemented than it acts now. It would just include arguably necromancers, who would be excluded from its functionality as it currently stands. The trigger problem of having enhanced glance goes out the window with that.

Also:

The basis of your argument is: The output indicates to you that our characters can see the enemy formation and therefore know which specific NPC is standing in front of or behind a target, by telling you it's short description.

The basis of my argument is: The output indicates to you that our characters cannot tell the difference between NPCs of the exact same apperance via glance by not indicating the difference between similar-looking NPCs. Call it obfuscation, tactics, etc.

You can extrapolate benefits and costs on the basis of the argument, but that's the basis of the argument. It simply begs why you call mine circular when the basis of yours is the exact same on the opposite side of the coin.

So, tell you what. Make glance indicate a difference between like-appearance NPCs via enhanced glance. 3.wraith, 5.wraith, and then what is the point of kill front? Your character doesn't know this until you glance, whether same short-desced or not, so why should we remove glance from the tactical equation?

Jerinx, correct did I ever state that I liked how targeting works for a group of 9 unique names? No, I don't, I guarantee that people probably already have triggers for that. Which means pk is NOT newb friendly.

While I'm in favor of this change, I do so with reservation, in that it makes the process a little too automatic for my taste. It's one thing to differentiate between the eight wraiths or four horses that are behind a person, but another completely to go into combat knowing the only thing that you have to type is "circle behind <victim>" until that thing is dead, and then "circle <victim>" until it is dead.

Part of the current PK difficulty and strategy on a group's part is setting formation to disturb any finesse character's chances of immediately taking advantage of them. The only aspect of the current combat that I like is that you can't just mindlessly roll in spamming "circle behind <victim>", but have to perform a minimum amount of in-combat adjustment, which helps justify the massive bank-rank damage that a rogue can output from a position of safety. I know I've also adjusted the formation halfway through longer skirmishes (retreat, swap formation, run back in) in an effort to slow down my opponent, which is a dimension that gets lost if changes like this are implemented.

However, I'll also find it hilarious when I roll in with a counterstriking NPC behind me and catch someone blindly circling behind.

Actually, I feel that combat could become even more dynamic. Especially if you have a bard and several others with rescue. And tumble should be for all adventurer classes. Modification of unit formation will actually become a useful tactic in pvp.

Enhanced glance would not require you to glance at every NPC in the room, of course. This means less information for the client to parse and faster reaction times. What in all probability would take 2 to 3 rounds with the current glance command could be done in less than one round with the enhanced glance command Jhorleb suggested.

It would also be less prone to failure due to formation changes that result from NPC/pet/guard deaths. Trying to use your client to simulate a front/back command with the current glance code is asking to get yourself killed. With Jhorleb's suggestion, it would be fast, efficient and reliable.

My problem with enhanced glance is that it seems arbitrary and unfair to people that won't be able to set up the necessary triggers, aliases, variables, etc. to convert the enhanced glance into a front/back functionality. The same "edge" that certain classes enjoy with the current system will simply get switched to people that are expert with their clients instead.

Personally, I would be fine with any of the suggested changes, since in the end I will benefit from them all equally - enhanced glance and skill-specific messages will just require a bit more work on my part. From a fairness perspective, either the front/back command should be implemented or no changes at all.

I don't think it would work this way after the last update. In order for a rogue to circle, the target has to be in combat. If you are in combat, I am fairly certain that you can't counterstrike. It might catch someone that is attempting to use backstab behind, though.