Shattered Kingdoms

Intimidate, as Jerin wants it, will be useless in group combat.

I like my solution best because the code to figure out whether you're in a party AND fighting or not is really not that complicated.

As a relevant counter-point, WickedWitch: would you mind not being sensationalist, and give constructive opinions on a bug and a potential fix? I'm afraid we're at the adult table in this forum, or I'd have other things to say, as well.

From what I understand, intimidate is there to stop an initiation, per the helpfile/when it was first put into the game(back before recorded time, I played a hellion when it was put into the game). It lasts longer than sanctuary when the intimidate succeeds, cannot be broken for atleast a tick if it succeeds...it's still way better than sanc for group control, if less useful for damage reduction.

I feel intimidate's not there to be abused to protect group members mid-combat from spells and attacks. That may or may not be an intentional aspect of intimidate, but it's worth talking about A) whether it is or isn't intentional that it can be used mid-group-combat, and B) potential solutions if it isn't.

We got your opinion when you fervently stated it isn't a bug. I'm not sure what your intention is if you're not here to contribute to the potential solution. Other than "[redacted sensationalist statement.]" A bug is here and should be fixed, or at least that's how I see this. I will be glad to admit I'm wrong if it's seen as otherwise, but I felt the case needs to be made either way.

Sargas: I wasn't commenting on the complication of the code, so much as the complication of the situation and the ease of playing with it as a back row caster. It's an initiation stopper, and my proposed change puts it back to that without it being an abusable skill in any mid-combat situation.

Considering that you play a paladin of all things, I find it hard to take anything you're saying without a tub of salt.

With that same argument you play a hellion so we can't take your statements without a tub of salt.

Skill is broken plain and simple.

That's your prerogative, WickedWitch. You choose not to acknowledge any sportsmanship or decency I have, and I can't really control that. Will it make this any less or more of a bug if I delete said paladin? Do you realize I'm a dwarven paladin, don't initiate combat due to sanc, and can't cast for #*$& because I'm a dwarf? I'm just wondering if you realize and understand what benefit you're implying I get from this.

I've played pretty much every class in the game with a good level of success. That may have been a long time ago, certainly, but I'm not here to tip the hand in my favor unfairly. I'm not here to care very much if I get my butt handed to me. I also hope you keep in mind that I intend on playing a hellion again one day. I'm not here to be petty, spiteful, or attempt to get an "advantage" over an IC enemy by clandestinely attempting to fix a bug that benefits my opposition. I'm not here to troll you. I'm not here to represent IC benefits for my character.

Unfortunately, not many people here have known me as a player and so most of what you see is the jovially trollish conversation I have on the forums. So, whatever you think of me is up to you.

A bug, is a bug, is a bug. I don't even know you, let alone care enough to try to spite you. Nor am I dumb enough in thinking that I can spite you by trying to manipulate Dulrik into a code change. Because at that point, you might not know me, but you sure as #*$& don't know Dulrik if you think that's a possibility.

If it's a bug, it's a bug. If it's not a bug, it's not a bug. This is here to bring that discussion to the fore. The world isn't against you. This is the adult table.

Honestly, trying to read the dialogue going on here where everyone tries to figure out how intimidate works is painful, so I'm just going to lay it out so that everyone knows. Hopefully Dulrik can read this and decide what to do. I've already laid out this problem in the past with no response from Dulrik back when he was less active, so it's clearly just flown under the radar until now.

***BEGIN CURRENT IMPLEMENTATION OF INTIMIDATION***

As things currently stand, intimidate is checked if someone tries to take an aggressive action against a hellion's group in the same room as long as the hellion is A) not resting, sleeping, or stunned and B) not -personally- engaged in melee combat. A hellion is not considered "personally engaged in combat" unless he is getting strikes with a melee weapon on a target each combat round. You have to pass an intimidate check for EVERY SINGLE ACTION taken against a hellion's group as long as the hellion is not personally engaged in melee combat. This means that if you are fighting someone in front of a hellion and you try to bash your target, you have to bypass an intimidate check if the hellion in his group is not personally engaged in combat. It also means that if you hit a 9 man group with color spray and a hellion is in the second or third row of that group without a reaching weapon on, then you have to save against 9 intimidate checks. The same is true for any group affect spell, and also for offensive staves that target anyone in a hellion's group.

If you ever fail any intimidate check against a hellion, then you cannot take any aggressive actions against the hellion or the hellion's group at all unless A) intimidate wears off or B) the hellion engages in melee combat. If you attack a hellion's group while intimidated, but the hellion has engaged in direct combat since you failed your intimidate check, you can act freely against the hellion and his entire group unless the hellion ceases to be personally engaged in melee combat.

***END CURRENT IMPLEMENTATION OF INTIMIDATION.

Now, the question is whether or not this is currently overpowering. I personally think that it is, but not for the reasons that most people are stating. I love the way that intimidate works now. I do not, however, like the idea of a hellion being able to sit in the second rank without a reach weapon on, or in the third rank at all, and still gain the full effects of intimidate. As things stand now, you can literally bypass one intimidate check to start stabbing a second-rank hellion in the face with a spear, but then try to trip him and get intimidated just because the hellion isn't wearing a reaching weapon. In the same way, a hellion can sit in the third rank spamming spells without a reaching weapon on while still forcing every single skill or spell used against his group to require an intimidate check, and no matter what, you are eventually going to fail a check.

I propose that intimidate, if possible, be refactored slightly. If a hellion is front rank, intimidate should work just as it does already. If a hellion is second rank and wielding a reaching weapon, intimidate should also work just as it already does. Auto assist should not factor into this at all. However, I think that if a hellion is in the second or third rank without a reaching weapon, he shouldn't ever incur any intimidate checks because it's impossible to force a second or third rank hellion with no reaching weapon on to personally engage in combat.

I think that if a hellion -can- be engaged in direct combat if someone were to hit him with a direct attack or spell, then the onus should be on his enemies to engage the hellion, or the hellion should have the liberty of engaging whenever he wishes. Allowing intimidate to be bypassed if anyone in the hellion's group is fighting will all but remove every useful application of the skill. How useful would sanctuary be if it all that it did was prevent people from attacking your character if your group wasn't already fighting? As well, making intimidate work only for those people in the hellion's group that aren't currently in combat is in my opinion nonsensical. Why would you be scared to petrify a sorcerer behind a hellion, but not scared of the barbarian in front of him? I also like my solution because it allows intimidate to still be useful while also removing the way OP'd nature of it.

Good summary Edoras. Interesting ideas also. Not sure of my opinion on them yet.

Why not just make every action pass an intimidate check and the problem would be solved. Instead of "cowering" until you regain your nerve, just have the normal lag time for that action. If you try to bash in combat, pass a check. Casting a spell against the hellion, pass a check. It just simplifies everything and at the same time can make hellions more useful, attractive to play, and survivable.

Did this get changed already? Still seems bugged that a hellion can sit in the back row and the hellion's entire party is protected from active attacks even though they are wailing on people.