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 Post subject: Re: Ethereal and necros
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:41 pm 
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Location: Newbtown
patrisaurus wrote:
1) Taking out a scout pet in 1.5 rounds is not a big deal, as scouts have access to the third row.

2) Taking out GM barbarians in 2-3 rounds means that the barbarian in question was a clueless newbie, not that there is a problem with the game. For example, I offer the time recently that Surrit level patrolled my wolverine char Logan. I had no weapon on to parry with, and yet I lasted 7 or so rounds because I was stance defensive and had armor/sanc/luck buffs (still died because I was afk taking a dump, but that's not really material to the conversation). If I had been at the PC, I'd have survived no problem. If I was unbuffed, I'd be behind a pet so as not to die like a newbie. Ardith might complain about Necros being unkillable by him because they're a fairly hard counter to melee, but that's called sour grapes, not game balance issues. His elf merc would have no problem tanking a wraith army for 7 rounds. In fact, any well built, reasonably geared, non clueless newbie has no trouble tanking a wraith army for several rounds. Yes, they will lose 1v1, but they will have ample opportunity to flee, quaff recall, or tank tank tank while their friends deal with the back row necro.

You are assuming too much about how the game "should be" instead of just playing it as it is, because you are bad, and you want the game to be dumbed down to your level instead of improving yourself.

You really just can't grasp the bigger picture. What good does it do a scout to be in the third row when his two pets get hacked to bits in under 3 rounds? How does he have a chance to actually win the fight against the necro? Yes, he can escape, but can he actually win? No chance. That is the point you seem to be missing over and over again. It's not about escaping; it's about having a chance to win. Why must necromancers be handled by tanking them for seven rounds with a fully buffed mercenary just so that other PCs can try to hit the necromancer? How is that balanced? Why must another character get involved in a PvP scenario to make it winnable? And how, exactly, does a mercenary try to tank a necro army then flee when things go south? How does he avoid "order all bash", even if he's in a certain cabal, because the necromancer already ganked his relic in 30 seconds?

Please, just quit posting about this unless you have something meaningful to contribute; hint: anecdotes about you taking a dump or fallacious ad hominem potshots at me aren't meaningful contributions. All you are doing is missing the point over and over like it's your job. You and everyone else continue to ignore the PvE side of things altogether and instead focus on just repeating that it's perfectly fine that necromancers can 1-on-1 any class and win in PvP, that it's just fine for a class to be so out of balance that it actually makes SK worse than it could be. Make a good argument as to why a necromancer's melee damage needs to be so astronomical compared to the rest of the game or just step aside.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethereal and necros
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:49 pm 
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From my understanding the game isn't balanced around 1v1 and frankly it shouldn't be.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethereal and necros
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:58 pm 
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Wolf wrote:
From my understanding the game isn't balanced around 1v1 and frankly it shouldn't be.

But does it need to be wildly out of balance? Does one class need to have 5x the melee output of the next best class? And what about PvE? Should one class be able to completely steamroll PvE solo while all other classes need to form groups to accomplish the same?


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 Post subject: Re: Ethereal and necros
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:15 am 
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SK Character: Theodoric
Styles wrote:
fallacious ad hominem potshots at me aren't meaningful contributions.


You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Ad hominem would be me calling you a comically obese, confederate-flag-waving, uneducated hick, and then saying that because of that your opinions on SK balance were worthless. Pointing out that you are clearly a clueless newbie is not, because it is very relevant to the topic at hand. Essentially, you are a 3rd grader trying to argue with a physics professor.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethereal and necros
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:21 am 
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SK Character: Theodoric
Styles wrote:
But does it need to be wildly out of balance? Does one class need to have 5x the melee output of the next best class? And what about PvE? Should one class be able to completely steamroll PvE solo while all other classes need to form groups to accomplish the same?


Yes.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethereal and necros
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:27 am 
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patrisaurus wrote:
Styles wrote:
fallacious ad hominem potshots at me aren't meaningful contributions.


You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Ad hominem would be me calling you a comically obese, confederate-flag-waving, uneducated hick, and then saying that because of that your opinions on SK balance were worthless. Pointing out that you are clearly a clueless newbie is not, because it is very relevant to the topic at hand. Essentially, you are a 3rd grader trying to argue with a physics professor.


You failed. ad hominem literally means, "to the man." Saying someone is a clueless newbie is an ad hominem attack and is the last sentence. Please stay on topic and use statistical analysis instead of anecdote and ad hominem attacks. Neither of those prove your point.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethereal and necros
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:28 am 
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patrisaurus wrote:
Styles wrote:
fallacious ad hominem potshots at me aren't meaningful contributions.


You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Ad hominem would be me calling you a comically obese, confederate-flag-waving, uneducated hick, and then saying that because of that your opinions on SK balance were worthless. Pointing out that you are clearly a clueless newbie is not, because it is very relevant to the topic at hand. Essentially, you are a 3rd grader trying to argue with a physics professor.


It's not relevant. I could be the worst player in the history of SK, but it is not relevant. All that matters is the ideas themselves, not who says them. Everything I have said is 100% sound. Everyone who has tried to refute them has resorted to fallacious argument tactics, such as constructing straw men or trying to focus on me. That is precisely what ad hominem is; it is making it about the arguer and not the argument. It means "to the man," as in trying to make the discussion about me instead of about what I say. It doesn't matter who I am if I'm right, and I am definitely right. Necromancers do not need the egregious melee output that they have. They do not need to be able to solo two cabal guardians in 30 seconds or get 50 attacks/round with their undead army. They do not need to be able to steamroll PvE, and they do not need to be able to have an advantage against every other class in PvP. It is not reasonable that they require a group to fight against them to have a chance, yet still leaving the necromancer with the advantage in many cases. There is no justification for any of this, and all I have done in this thread is to propose changes to address this glaring game balance problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethereal and necros
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:29 am 
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I happen to think Styles does have some good points. This argument is clearly between two classes of people: one side who likes things just the way they are and another who thinks an alteration would be good for the game.

I personally don't think you should need three players to kill a necromancer. Any three players of equivalent level should put fear in a necromancer. Two players of equivalent level should stand a good chance. A solo paladin should have an even chance.

A solo scout should almost certainly lose, but ought to at least be able to put up a fight. It is bad gameplay if the only obvious course of action against a solo necromancer is to immediately attempt to escape.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethereal and necros
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:36 am 
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About soloing CRS, how about some system where the number of PC's determines it strength. ie if you have 4 or more PC's in the room with the Guardian, it is what it is currently. For every person less than four in the room with the Guardian, the damage is geometrically increased. Note that the number four being what should be a viable group to attack a keep is a semi-random number.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethereal and necros
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:37 am 
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Styles wrote:
Wolf wrote:
From my understanding the game isn't balanced around 1v1 and frankly it shouldn't be.

But does it need to be wildly out of balance? Does one class need to have 5x the melee output of the next best class? And what about PvE? Should one class be able to completely steamroll PvE solo while all other classes need to form groups to accomplish the same?


I can't really answer that intelligently sorry, I don't have enough game experience.


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