Shattered Kingdoms

Now now, a necromancer is very much alive, so he would still be dead meat. If someone were to animate him, however, then yes, undead meat would be correct.

Some posters in this thread are severely overestimating the strength of animates and the supremacy of "o all bash." Necromancers are the most powerful class, but I did solo them with the two barbs I played. Rorey took out Xunux's army and Tarconus got ambushed by Zerel in the empire but still killed all his wraiths and ran him off. Barbarian is supposed to be the worst possible class for fighting a necromancer, right?

Yes, but when the players of the necros suck, not so much.

The whole "i beat necros solo" is great, but I don't think it has much merit. Take your skill level at playing a barb and convert that to skill at playing a necro. So, person A is as good at playing a barb as person B is at playing a necro. I bet player B wins 75%, or more, of the time.

The reason why some can say they've never had a problem with necros is because no one is as good at playing a necro as they are at playing whatever class they were playing. And by no one, I mean the people that were playing necros at the time.

In that particular instance, I swear it was two necromancers, but the player swears it was just one. I don't have the log, but as soon as I get my relic back, I'll be happy to timestamp log the next time it gets blitz'd. It won't be 30 seconds but it'll be less than a minute.

Rodwen, that's why I conceded that necromancers were the most powerful class. The imbalance just isn't as huge as people make it out to be, and chances against a necro are not as hopeless as some posters seem to think it is.

If it were up to me, I would make it so you do not take your charms with you when you recall. I would also add the no-save etherealform pills that jhorleb suggested. I think this would be entirely sufficient.

However, if styles's suggestions of capping wraith level at 35 or going classless etc were implemented, I would not think necromancers were underpowered. In fact, you could take animate dead AND control undead away from necros entirely, and they would be a decent support class in pvp, albeit with less utility than other support classes outside of pvp. This is because of their malediction spellset, fear, sleep, rift, scrolls/wands/staves, and FoD.

I think removing bash from animates would make necromancers a lot more creative with their spell set, and the controls that they choose. I'm still on team "only sorcs should go ethereal" but clearly I'm the only one who feels that way

I don't think animate dead itself should be changed, nor should the undead have their levels capped. Maybe the barbarian class removed, but I don't really know enough about it to feel strongly one way or the other. I like the idea of powerful necros, but I don't like the idea that they aren't a little bit vulnerable to dying from a bigger variety of classes, or that a solo paladin can't stay alive enough rounds in order to get the necro.

The reason you don't see more "competent necros" is because people roll necros and don't take them particularly seriously unless they know where to get the right staves, vials, and Necropolis. A lot of people don't play necros because they're either too easy, or require too much prep. I had a necro and it was far too much prep work for me personally, as I play the game rather casually and don't often have large blocks of time available to me.

I think the animate limit nerf was more than enough, but it still seems like "o all bash" is the winner of the game. I think there's a decent compromise.

We all want necromancers to be powerful baddies who strike fear into the hearts of citizens, but we also want to have a little hope that some unsung hero is going to save the townspeople from the big bad guy! I don't think that any of Dulrik's suggestions will make the necromancer class underpowered. It might just make playing other classes a little more fun.

I really want to work up a long response, so bear with me. Over the past few years, here are the two biggest insights I've gained that can help make a character take steps toward the elite. I don't, by any means, claim to be there, but I think I'm getting better at learning to use what I have.

1) You're not going to kill any veteran player in a single engagement, period. Doesn't matter what they play -- they're going to escape the first skirmish because they've mastered the art of not over-committing.
Corollary: You have to learn to play the long-term battle, and learn the limits of your class and your personal capabilities. You have to learn how not to over-commit.
2) You will never beat a player who has gone on the offensive and has adequately prepared and set a battle plan if you haven't done the same. You can't expect to catch a veteran in full on rage mode by getting up from your fountain RP and scrambling to put together a defense and expect to secure the field.
Corollary: You must occasionally go on the offensive. This both gives you the edge of potential surprise, and forces your opponent to react.
Corollary: You have to learn to prepare for engagement. The difference in preparation is directly proportional to the odds of success.

Specifically, here are a few additional thoughts on a paladin vs. necro fight:

0) A single paladin is not going to kill a necromancer that gets the drop on them, any more than the necromancer will do anything but die horribly if the situation is reversed.
1) Necros can't spam o all bash. Every time they order, that's another round of combat lag. It's a timing thing -- if they're timing is better than yours (e.g., flee vs. o all bash) then sucks to be you.
2) Undead have 0 saves prior to berserk. That's a zero. That's especially important when you understand that it takes a decent will save to overcome sanctuary.
3) Holy word is not your friend. It looks incredibly attractive at first glance, but the end result makes it counter-productive (see 1 and 2 and try to derive why).
4) You are not going to be able to stand on the front row and against a wraith army.
5) You have a half-round spell that obliterates a single undead target.

LOLOLOLOLOL!

So . . . when one of their three front-row undead animates successfully bashes you and you're prone for THREE ROUNDS, the necromancer's order lag is going to stop him from ordering them to do so again?

Logic fail.

Most necros I've seen don't even have the wraiths in formation, allowing all 8 to bash simultaneously. The timing he's talking about is that if they order just before you get up from a previous bash, then the lag on that order gives you a few moments to quaff or flee, so it's a matter of if you somehow manage to survive being bashed, then they have to order before you quaff or flee.

Well, yes, there easily could be eight doing the bashing, but it's easy as cake to put in your order command at the half round and spam bash.

Even *I* can do that -- without spamming.

There's not really much chance of getting up and WoRing out or fleeing. That's why we se so many logs of people dying to spam bash rather than successfully fleeing.