Ethereal and necros

Styles · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:18 pm

Rodwen wrote:

Edoras wrote:

Styles wrote:

It's true that a paladin could kill a sleeping, unprepared necromancer with no wraith army. Nobody is going to dispute that, and that has nothing to do with anything that has been discussed in this thread. But, in the actual log, there was more to it than "a paladin killed a necro in 2 BoGs". Who knows what information has been omitted from all of these other examples people keep citing?

Gee, I don't know, but maybe you could actually go look them up and figure it out for yourself? Every single log that's been quoted here is publicly available. If you were more than an insufferable troll you would actually look for yourself instead of going "they're obviously lying because their actual examples discredit my ideas."

He's saying that there are things we don't know. In the logs where the necros get owned, what were the necro's buffs? Were they missing a key buff that could have been the difference between losing and winning. If the one that beat the necro did so because the player forgot a buff, then that's a player mistake. If, with the buff that was missing, the necro had a greater chance of winning than the opponent, the necro is at an unfair advantage, a.k.a. out of balance.

P.S. just trying to clarify Styles' point.

Yes, were they asleep with no wraith army? Did they zap themselves with fireball wands? Were they fighting in enemy territory with one sessprian ghoul and nothing else? Were they butt-naked and just trying to mow people down with wraiths? Did they neglect to enter a single command during the entire fight? I'm not interested in combing through these examples to see what happened, especially when the very first one I look at (Nivienne) shows that you (Edoras) are wrong about basic math (number of bolts of glory) and that you blatantly omit the circumstances of the fight.

Edoras · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:26 pm

I never said Nivienne died in 2 BoGs, I said she died in 2 rounds.

You can play the "we don't know" card with absolutely everything. It also doesn't help at all and is a pretty terrible excuse when nothing's stopping you from finding out what "you don't know."

How about this, I'll save you the time: Anytime that PCs who have access to holy word and aren't in enemy tribunal territory die to a necro's undead army, they screwed up. Find me a log where that isn't true and nothing dumb like a lucky petrification was involved, and I'll concede that necros are way too OP. Go ahead and roll a necro, and try to go on a killing spree. I'll read every single log where you land a kill and I'll gladly point out what stupid thing they did that allowed you to kill them, and I'll even point out all the things they could have done instead that would have beaten you without you being able to do a thing about it.

Otherwise, sit here, and whine about how necros are OP even though you have no idea what you're talking about. The best part is that you might even succeed, and Dulrik might wimp the class, again, and you know what will happen? No one will play a necro, just like it is now: Because if you nerf necros to where they're no more combat viable than sorcs, then they will be an absolutely worthless class. You ever wonder why there aren't any long-lived necros that do any reasonable amount of PK? It's because once people realize that they aren't worth all the trouble you go through and all the weaknesses you carry, they delete.

Styles · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:37 pm

Edoras wrote:

I never said Nivienne died in 2 BoGs, I said she died in 2 rounds.

She died in the third round. Just go look. You aren't even getting the MOST RECENT example right. And they had the luxury of standing around for a while to attack her because she was asleep! Who knows how foggy your memory is on the old examples? I do not really want to go and discredit you log by log, when the facts all speak for themselves.

Quote:

You ever wonder why there aren't any long-lived necros that do any reasonable amount of PK?

No. I know why. Because it's no fun to play such an imbalanced class. Only a twink would want to play on easymode for very long. I prefer playing classes that are on a more even playing field. Maybe if some changes go in and balance the necromancer then I'll consider playing one. I am looking forward to a crop of necromancers whose players select them for RP reasons, not for PK dominance with a broken class.

Edoras · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:47 pm

My memory isn't foggy. She died after the second round but before the third.

That's in two rounds.

When she dies all the undead turn and immediately get a free round of attacks on each other since the four controls all immediately broke. The game just calculates those things backwards and the free round of attacks actually "happens" first. Maybe if you had any idea what you're talking about you'd have realized that.

Quote:

Life 100 Mana 96 Move 100

A svelte female deep-elf wakes up, and clambers to her feet.

Life 100 Mana 96 Move 100

Gryk points excitedly at a svelte female deep-elf!
Rhakeesh utters the words, 'barh ay ohifl'.
A bolt of light bursts forth from Rhakeesh's hand!
A svelte female deep-elf is surrounded by a nimbus of holy light!
A svelte female deep-elf yells 'Guards! A disheveled male centaur is trying to
murder me!'
A svelte female deep-elf cringes in terror from Rhakeesh's bolt of glory!

Life 100 Mana 96 Move 100

Rhakeesh starts to concentrate.

Life 100 Mana 96 Move 100

Gryk stops flying.

Life 100 Mana 96 Move 100

FIRST ROUND

Your wounds blossom on Jaena's body as she absorbs your pain.
An enormous wight's freezing bite slightly singes your chest.
Your shield blocks an enormous wight's attack.
Your shield blocks an enormous wight's attack.
You dodge an enormous wight's attack.
You parry a sessprian ghoul's attack.
You dodge a sessprian ghoul's attack.
Your shield blocks an enormous wight's attack.
An enormous wight's attack passes partially through you.
Your wounds blossom on Jaena's body as she absorbs your pain.
An enormous wight pierces at your right finger, cutting you slightly.
Your shield blocks an enormous wight's attack.
An enormous wight's attack passes partially through you.
Your wounds blossom on Jaena's body as she absorbs your pain.
An enormous wight pierces at your right toe, cutting it slightly.
Your shield blocks an enormous wight's attack.
An enormous wight's shield blocks Rhakeesh's attack.
An enormous wight parries Gryk's attack.
Hoch slices at an enormous wight's right hand, cutting a small wound.
Pakara pierces at an enormous wight's chest, barely wounding him.
Caeranvyk cleaves an enormous wight's chest, cutting a small but painful, wound.
Caeranvyk cleaves at an enormous wight's chest, causing a deep gash.
Caeranvyk cleaves at an enormous wight's chest, causing a deep gash.
An enormous wight parries Pakara's attack.
Pakara pierces at an enormous wight's chest, causing a deep gash.
Pakara pierces at an enormous wight's chest, causing a gaping wound!
A sessprian ghoul misses you.
You parry a sessprian ghoul's attack.
You parry a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul misses you.
You parry a sessprian ghoul's attack.
You dodge a sessprian ghoul's attack.
You dodge a sessprian ghoul's attack.
You dodge a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul's attack passes partially through you.
Your wounds blossom on Jaena's body as she absorbs your pain.
A sessprian ghoul slices at your stomach, barely scratching you.
You dodge a sessprian ghoul's attack.
You dodge a sessprian ghoul's attack.
You dodge a sessprian ghoul's attack.
Overall, an enormous wight has some small wounds and bruises.

Life 97 Mana 96 Move 100

Hoch stops flying.

Life 97 Mana 96 Move 100

Rhakeesh utters the words, 'barh ay ohifl'.
A bolt of light bursts forth from Rhakeesh's hand!
A svelte female deep-elf cringes in terror from Rhakeesh's bolt of glory!

Life 97 Mana 96 Move 100

Rhakeesh starts to concentrate.

Life 97 Mana 96 Move 100

A svelte female deep-elf quickly jumps out of the way as Hoch kicks dirt into
the air.

Life 97 Mana 96 Move 100

A svelte female deep-elf zaps a wand of spinning vortices.
A svelte female deep-elf's efforts with a wand of spinning vortices produce
only smoke and sparks.
Caeranvyk slams into an enormous wight and sends him sprawling!
Caeranvyk's bash knocks the wind out of an enormous wight.

SECOND ROUND

Life 97 Mana 96 Move 100
dirt svelt
A svelte female deep-elf quickly moves out of the way, dodging your dastardly
tactics!
You slice an enormous wight's chest, causing a gaping wound!
An enormous wight's shield blocks your attack.
An enormous wight parries your attack.
An enormous wight parries your attack.
An enormous wight parries Hoch's attack.
Hoch slices at an enormous wight's stomach, barely scratching him.
Hoch slices at an enormous wight's left wrist, causing a big gash.
An enormous wight's shield blocks Hoch's attack.
An enormous wight's shield blocks Gryk's attack.
An enormous wight's shield blocks Gryk's attack.
Gryk's life drain strikes an enormous wight's chest.
An enormous wight misses you.
An enormous wight misses you.
Your wounds blossom on Jaena's body as she absorbs your pain.
An enormous wight's freezing bite slightly singes your chest.
Your wounds blossom on Jaena's body as she absorbs your pain.
An enormous wight's freezing bite barely burns your chest.
Your wounds blossom on Jaena's body as she absorbs your pain.
You are unfazed as an enormous wight's tail harmlessly strikes.
Your shield blocks an enormous wight's attack.
Your shield blocks an enormous wight's attack.
Your shield blocks an enormous wight's attack.
Your shield blocks an enormous wight's attack.
Rhakeesh slashes at an enormous wight's chest, DISEMBOWELING him!
Caeranvyk cleaves at an enormous wight's face, slightly scratching his cheek.
Caeranvyk cleaves an enormous wight's forehead, causing a small wound.
An enormous wight's shield blocks Caeranvyk's attack.
Pakara pierces at an enormous wight's chest, ripping open his stomach!
Pakara strikes suddenly, piercing at an enormous wight's chest! Some GUTS fall!
You parry a sessprian ghoul's attack.
You dodge a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul's attack passes partially through you.
Your wounds blossom on Jaena's body as she absorbs your pain.
A sessprian ghoul's slice at your chest is deflected by a plate sprinkled with
stardust.
You parry a sessprian ghoul's attack.
You parry a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul's attack passes partially through you.
Your wounds blossom on Jaena's body as she absorbs your pain.
A sessprian ghoul's slice at your left leg is deflected by leggings sprinkled
with stardust.
Your shield blocks a sessprian ghoul's attack.
You dodge a sessprian ghoul's attack.
You parry a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul misses you.
A sessprian ghoul misses you.
Overall, an enormous wight has quite a few wounds.

Life 93 Mana 96 Move 98

THIRD BOLT WHERE SHE DIES AND THE UNDEAD GET A FREE ATTACK

Rhakeesh utters the words, 'barh ay ohifl'.
A bolt of light bursts forth from Rhakeesh's hand!
A sessprian ghoul looks very angry at a svelte female deep-elf!
A sessprian ghoul slices at an enormous wight's right wrist, causing a big gash.
A sessprian ghoul slices at an enormous wight's left leg, tearing open a
bleeding wound!
A sessprian ghoul slices an enormous wight's stomach, causing a small wound.
An enormous wight dodges a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul slices at an enormous wight's right arm, cutting a painful
wound across it!
A sessprian ghoul strikes suddenly, slicing at an enormous wight's chest! Some
GUTS fall!
A sessprian ghoul looks very angry at a svelte female deep-elf!
An enormous wight's shield blocks a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul slices at an enormous wight's right leg, causing a sore wound.
A sessprian ghoul slices an enormous wight's stomach, cutting a deep gash.
A sessprian ghoul strikes suddenly, slicing at an enormous wight's chest! Some
GUTS fall!
An enormous wight parries a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul slices at an enormous wight's right leg, tearing open a
bleeding wound!
An enormous wight looks very angry at a svelte female deep-elf!
An enormous wight looks very angry at a svelte female deep-elf!
As a svelte female deep-elf is bathed in Rhakeesh's bolt of glory, she screams
and falls over dead!
A svelte female deep-elf is DEAD!!
A svelte female deep-elf's head is skillfully severed from her body.

Life 93 Mana 96 Move 98
THIRD ROUND

An enormous wight parries your attack.
You strike suddenly, slicing at an enormous wight's chest! Some GUTS fall!
You strike suddenly, slicing at an enormous wight's chest! Some GUTS fall!
Hoch strikes suddenly, slicing at an enormous wight's chest! Some GUTS fall!
An enormous wight's shield blocks Hoch's attack.
Hoch strikes suddenly, slicing at an enormous wight's chest! Some GUTS fall!
An enormous wight parries Hoch's attack.
Gryk's life drain starts to warp an enormous wight's chest.
An enormous wight's shield blocks Gryk's attack.
Gryk violently contorts an enormous wight's chest with his unholy energies.
An enormous wight dodges Gryk's attack.
An enormous wight misses you.
Your wounds blossom on Jaena's body as she absorbs your pain.
An enormous wight's freezing bite slightly singes your right arm.
You parry an enormous wight's attack.
An enormous wight misses you.
You dodge an enormous wight's attack.
An enormous wight screams and attacks!
An enormous wight pierces at Pakara's chest, causing a deep gash.
An enormous wight pierces at Pakara's right arm, slicing a painful wound across
it!
An enormous wight pierces at Pakara's head, causing a pulsating wound.
An enormous wight pierce at Pakara's left leg, piercing open a bleeding wound!
An enormous wight pierces at Pakara's stomach, opening a painful, bleeding
wound!
An enormous wight's shield blocks Rhakeesh's attack.
Rhakeesh slashes an enormous wight's chest HARD, cutting through his ribs!
An enormous wight's shield blocks Rhakeesh's attack.
An enormous wight's shield blocks Caeranvyk's attack.
Caeranvyk cleaves at an enormous wight's head, causing a small but painful
wound.
An enormous wight's shield blocks Caeranvyk's attack.
An enormous wight's shield blocks Pakara's attack.
Pakara pierces at an enormous wight's head, causing a pulsating wound.
Pakara pierces at an enormous wight's chest HARD, gouging through his ribs!
An enormous wight dodges a sessprian ghoul's attack.
An enormous wight's shield blocks a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul slices an enormous wight's stomach, tearing open a painful,
bleeding wound!
An enormous wight's shield blocks a sessprian ghoul's attack.
An enormous wight parries a sessprian ghoul's attack.
An enormous wight parries a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul slices at an enormous wight's left arm, cutting a painful
wound across it!
An enormous wight's shield blocks a sessprian ghoul's attack.
An enormous wight parries a sessprian ghoul's attack.
An enormous wight parries a sessprian ghoul's attack.
An enormous wight's shield blocks a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul slices an enormous wight's chest. An enormous wight falls on
his knees and collapses.
An enormous wight is DEAD!!
You hear an enormous wight's death cry.
Hoch's counterstrike grazes a sessprian ghoul.
Hoch parries a sessprian ghoul's attack.
Hoch parries a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul slices at Hoch's chest, causing only a minor wound.
Hoch parries a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul slices Hoch's chest, cutting a small but painful, wound.
Hoch parries a sessprian ghoul's attack.
Hoch parries a sessprian ghoul's attack.
A sessprian ghoul slices Hoch's stomach, causing a small wound.
A sessprian ghoul slices at Hoch's chest, causing a deep gash.
A sessprian ghoul slices Hoch's forehead, causing a small wound.
A sessprian ghoul slices at Hoch's right leg, causing a sore wound.

I also find it amusing to point out that yes, the tanking PC took 7% damage from four equipped undead controls in 2 rounds. The only reason anyone dies here is because Ardith doesn't just rescue or retreat, and the scout taking damage from the battle-spear wielding undead doesn't take any combat actions at all and dies. If no one else except the paladin and merc had been there, the exact same thing would have happened in this log. In fact, in this instance even if the wand had succeeded, the necro would have died with just the paladin and merc there.

Styles · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:52 pm

Edoras wrote:

My memory isn't foggy. She died after the second round but before the third.

Thanks only to being encountered asleep and unprepared. You don't want to count the opening bolt, that's fine, but all of that concentration happened BEFORE the first round of combat. Thus, this battle took longer than two rounds. Besides which, you can't generally walk in and bolt a prepared, competent necromancer, which is what we have been talking about in this thread.

Quote:

I also find it amusing to point out that yes, the tanking PC took 7% damage from four equipped undead controls in 2 rounds. The only reason anyone dies here is because Ardith doesn't just rescue or retreat, and the scout taking damage from the battle-spear wielding undead doesn't take any combat actions at all. If no one else except the paladin and merc had been there, the exact same thing would have happened.

My point still stands. In a 5 on 1 against a sleeping, unprepared opponent, one of the group of 5 died despite the opponent doing nothing but unsuccessfully zapping a wand. No other class would be able to pull this off.

Edoras · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:59 pm

Styles wrote:

No. I know why. Because it's no fun to play such an imbalanced class. Only a twink would want to play on easymode for very long. I prefer playing classes that are on a more even playing field. Maybe if some changes go in and balance the necromancer then I'll consider playing one. I am looking forward to a crop of necromancers whose players select them for RP reasons, not for PK dominance with a broken class.

That's great, except it's wrong. The only person who's actually played a necro and claimed that to be true is Algon, and that's because he went to war with a bunch of PK newbies and spam-killed them to the point where they just logged off whenever he showed up. He could have easily done that with any other class, however, and all of Algon's fights are just ridiculously painful to read because of how people just throw themselves on his undead.

Also, necros have been wimped since Algon played, he would use animate undead wands to get about 15 wights on top of the wraiths, which is impossible now due to a nerf. Every necro which has been rolled since then has been short lived and relatively unnoticed. I have already named them all, including the fights where they lost spectularly due to people playing against them correctly.

If necros were so easy to ravage the mud with, then Syn wouldn't have landed fewer kills with her necro than she landed with her tribunal shaman.

And yes, your point stands that someone who sat there and did nothing while their HP went to zero died. However, trying to prove anything with that is about as useful as saying that AFK people die.

All of your postulating comes with absolutely no examples to back it up, whereas mine do. And now I've broken my rule of bothering to argue with someone who has no idea what they're talking about to the point where they felt the need to roll an entirely different forum account just to post some ideas about necromancer balance.

My guess is that one of these two things are true about you:
A) You are actually a new player, so this is your first forum account. This means that there's no way you've had enough experience playing SK to know what in the world you're talking about.
B) You have been playing SK a while, but aren't comfortable with people associating your ideas with who you are. If this is true then I have no idea why you think anyone should take you seriously here.

Styles · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:16 pm

Edoras wrote:

That's great, except it's wrong.

So, you are a mind reader now? You know why the people who don't currently play necromancers aren't playing them? Very impressive.

Quote:

If necros were so easy to ravage the mud with, then Syn wouldn't have landed fewer kills with her necro than she landed with her tribunal shaman.

I'm not familiar with this tribunal shaman. I don't know the circumstances or who her enemies were. All I do know is that she didn't seem to try very hard with this necromancer. Just look at the log of her going against Mephistir. What was that? Just look at this last log? What is she thinking here? Do you think she played a necromancer as well as you do? On a scale of 1 to 10, where would you rate her play with this character?

Quote:

And yes, your point stands that someone who sat there and did nothing while their HP went to zero died. However, trying to prove anything with that is about as useful as saying that AFK people die.

Except that no other class could accomplish this feat of taking one out of a five person group down when run up on unprepared and asleep.

Quote:

All of your postulating comes with absolutely no examples to back it up, whereas mine do. And now I've broken my rule of bothering to argue with someone who has no idea what they're talking about to the point where they felt the need to roll an entirely different forum account just to post some ideas about necromancer balance.

You just ignore the examples, especially the entire PvE side of things, which you somehow think is balanced with the exception of CRS.

Quote:

My guess is that one of these two things are true about you:
A) You are actually a new player, so this is your first forum account. This means that there's no way you've had enough experience playing SK to know what in the world you're talking about.
B) You have been playing SK a while, but aren't comfortable with people associating your ideas with who you are. If this is true then I have no idea why you think anyone should take you seriously here.

C) LOL.

evena · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:18 pm

Her higher kill count on Keleza doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Nivienne was a month-old character that is now retired?

Sargas · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:13 pm

What classes currently hard-counter Necromancer?

Superman · **Joined:** Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:05 pm **Posts:** 152

Shamans.

Shattered Kingdoms

Ethereal and necros

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