How to make CRS more PvP and less PvE

Lumiere · **Joined:** Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:19 am **Posts:** 309

Grep.

You're not adding anything.

You're trolling.

Why don't you go troll some religious or political forum you don't agree with?

grep · **Joined:** Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:50 pm **Posts:** 5522

Lumiere wrote:

Grep.

You're not adding anything.

You're trolling.

Why don't you go troll some religious or political forum you don't agree with?

You're derailing your own thread. Do you not agree with my assessment of CRS? Do you find 6σ an inappropriate tool to use when discussing game development? Are your game theory postulates different from mine regarding ability, difficulty, and engagement?

CRS is an optional extension of roleplay, and many of the patch suggestions really gloss over the fact that.. well, here, take the opening of the "Combat" chapter of the Unknown Armies system as a metaphor:

Quote:

Somewhere out there is someone who had loving parents, watched clouds on a summer's day, fell in love, lost a friend, is kind to small animals, and knows how to say "please" and "thank you," and yet somehow the two of you are going to end up in a dirty little room with one knife between you and you are going to have to kill that human being.

It's a terrible thing. Not just because he's come to the same realization and wants to survive just as much as you do, meaning he's going to try and puncture your internal organs to set off a cascading trauma effect that ends with you voiding your bowels, dying alone and removed from everything you've ever loved. No, it's a terrible thing because somewhere along the way you could have made a different choice. You could have avoided that knife, that room, and maybe even found some kind of common ground between the two of you. Or at least, you might have divvied up some turf and left each other alone. That would've been a lot smarter, wouldn't it? Even dogs are smart enough to do that. Now you're staring into the eyes of a fellow human and in a couple minutes one of you is going to be vomiting to the rhythm of a fading heartbeat. The survivor is going to remember this night for the rest of his or her life.

Of course, for some characters, I suppose the day they knifed a guy was, to them, only Tuesday, but the idea stands: CRS shouldn't be thought of as a system that needs to be balanced to perfection to "fix" it. It's a system that needs to be balanced to be an appropriately short-term, last resort of RPPK. That's how you make it less PvE: you promote the player elements involved. Complicating the environment with yet another coin farming mechanic isn't. It also just so happens that a lot of very good advice supports this general assessment.

Trolling? No, I'm trying to have a conversation--a conversation you started. What are you doing?

FinneyOwnzU · **Joined:** Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:51 am **Posts:** 1500

ur high if u think anyone enjoys crs, much less if you add a bunch of wily e coyote siege nonsense to it. people enjoy having cabal powers and ur punished by losing 2 of them (used to be all 5) if u don't participate. it's not compelling, it's poorly designed, and most importantly it isn't fun. sever those last 2 cabal abilities from relics and u will see how much interest there is in crs - zero.

Lumiere · **Joined:** Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:19 am **Posts:** 309

Okay.

I think that scheduling it would promote player elements by encouraging players to defend, instead of having the system itself defend.

I agree that coin farming sucks, but it is already so far built into SK that I don't think we're going to defeat coin by avoiding it. Changing the nature of coin earning would be a better solution that trying to avoid another coin farming mechanic. SK victory already runs off of coin farming.

If a better idea falls out of your mechanical systems theory, or the Unknown Armies system, which can be understood by us mere mortals, please let us know. How can CRS be made to be 'short term' or 'last resort'?

Finney- If 'we don't like CRS' was going to change Dulrik's coding, it would have done that a while ago. We should keep our suggestions within the field of those that Dulrik might like.

I think that giving people an opportunity to defend their stronghold (something that has never happened to me in a period of being among the 2 most active SKers, and getting raided twice) will make CRS more fun than it is right now. Logging in to be like 'oh they ninja raided us' is less fun than a siege camp popping up around my stronghold, and my guardian telling me over cb that the attackers look like they'll be ready in XX days.

FinneyOwnzU · **Joined:** Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:51 am **Posts:** 1500

Lumiere wrote:

Finney- If 'we don't like CRS' was going to change Dulrik's coding, it would have done that a while ago. We should keep our suggestions within the field of those that Dulrik might like.

kid i don't have to care what u like or what dulrik likes. i have taken many relics with just two people and i have defended against entire groups solo. when ur as good as me u don't have to care what the unwashed masses think.

Galactus · **Joined:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:21 pm **Posts:** 906

Dulrik wrote:

The key for me is a methodology which does not encourage people to log out (or avoid logging in) as a way of defending their relic.

Easy, count the number of people as counted as 'online' as the number of people defending w/in the last 5mins. If they are logging on to defend their base, they are using OOC for an IC reason. So, whatever.

grep · **Joined:** Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:50 pm **Posts:** 5522

Lumiere wrote:

I agree that coin farming sucks, but it is already so far built into SK that I don't think we're going to defeat coin by avoiding it. Changing the nature of coin earning would be a better solution that trying to avoid another coin farming mechanic. SK victory already runs off of coin farming.

Does SK fun really run off of coin farming?

The core of my argument when looking at these issues is that it is a failure to consider "SK Victory" anything other than players having fun playing the game. When I evaluate a mechanic that would take two factions already at odds with one another and tie up the only truly finite resource either has -- player time and energy -- to farm coins on one side and slay siege NPCs on the other, I don't come away very excited about the proposition. Particularly if it involves such mechanics as a booming that voice says, "Those guys who curb stomped you earlier? They'll be coming through the front door in about an hour."

Your suggestion, just like OA's zany labyrinth idea a while back, fails to systematically approach the nature of CRS. Any attackers will be prepared because to attack is an opt-in action. Any defenders are not guaranteed to be prepared. In CRS, you can choose whether you want to defend (now) or attack (later.) No mechanical tweak nor option will ever be able to patch the uneven distribution of agency. This is a well-established concept: it should be easy for mortals to understand because it is a theory mortals have developed and tested.

skweeky · **Joined:** Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:30 pm **Posts:** 132

It's not true that no one enjoys CRS. I enjoyed the hell out of CRS when I played Sharnay. At one point as the Harles, we had every relic in the game. And we repeatedly fended off groups of two at a time with just me and one or two other people. Lasted a couple/few weeks. I remember Achernar appeared at the Guardian and got attacked and we thought it was ic, and ran in to attack him, but it wasn't. :drunk:

fun times. thing is, there was a lot more players back then.

Chem · **Joined:** Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:04 pm **Posts:** 1017

skweeky wrote:

fun times. thing is, there was a lot more players back then.

Could always consolidate the Cabals down to reflect the average player base. Since right now there are too many factions spread thin usually leading to one Cabal being the more dominate of the rest player wise. Of course some people have shown quality can some times knock out quantity.

Lumiere · **Joined:** Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:19 am **Posts:** 309

skweeky wrote:

there was a lot more players back then

Yes, SK faction war victory really runs off of coin farming. It comes down to, as you put it, one side farming coins and the other side slaying siege NPCs. The only real use of PK is to prevent the other side from doing those actions. If you don't find this fundamental reality of SK to be that exciting, maybe you should look beyond SK for excitement. That's the way it is.

I agree that the lack of defender preparation is the great unbalancer of CRS. Making CRS a foreseeable event during peak game hours would help encourage defender preparation, though it couldn't guarantee it. PK always has an attacker and a defender, too. Uneven distribution of agency (lol, wut) is part of the game and part of life.

Your suggestion that CRS has some fundamental problem and should be revolutionized is nice. I'd love to hear what your revolution is- if we should just get rid of it entirely, or replace it with something else, and if so, what.

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How to make CRS more PvP and less PvE

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