Shattered Kingdoms

I guess I agree with Gilgon. Seems that skill and the eagerness to spend half your life knowing the MUd's items/herbs/eq by heart is that wins PK, the extra skills/NPCs are just icing on the cake.

Gremlin, I love thinking like you do in your last post, but I don't think it's very realistic. A LOT of people get high on ICly controlling as much as possible, myself included with many of my chars. But some enjoy it in an RP-related manner and strive to generate more RP with their IC authority. Others -will- abuse it. I can't find an enlightened Fist leader having the time to also lead the entire (much more mundane) Talons, and the same goes for CoN/Adepts and Hammer/Peacekeepers (not so much in this last case, but to a significant degree).

BUMP!

I did what I said I wasn't going to do, just to be fair to Lei_Kung. I tried to get through all fifty-five pages, but I died on page sixteen. You are some long-winded mofo's, let me tell you.

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I'm going to stick by my guns on this one, and say I'm against the idea. The hinge of many arguments here for most people is this: it adds RP dimensions and makes spy RP more possible, and it allows cabals to go back to be secretive political movers.

I'm totally in agreement with this: I think the RP possibilities are endless with dual memberships.

I'm in total disagreement with cabals being made secretive by this change. With spys everywhere, and in all manner of cabals and tribunals (which will happen -- it is inevitable) there were will be even fewer secrets than there are now. It's bad enough we have OOC cliques sharing information and using it ICly to debunk players, but now people can do it on their own ICly in addition to whatever they learn in their OOC circles.

I see this having two effects:

Leaders are going to be less inclined to accept new people unless they know and trust them OOCly. Someone like me who doesn't talk to people outside of the game may end up being less trusted and less likely to be inducted. I don't trust the objectivity of ANY leader anymore (including msyelf, when I am one).

Secondly, I will be discouraged from joining any cabal or tribunal because, without any ability to hide my membership from EVERYONE, I'm going to be even more of a target. My memberships will be known almost immediately to the entire political community on SK.

It won't be fun. Other people's spy RP will ruin my secret cabal RP, and I'll probably become a bigger PK target, and likely die even more frequently because every cabal's intelligence safe-guards will leak like a sieve.

Knowing how players on SK are, I see this blowing up into a big mess of political subterfuge which does nothing but [REDACTED] players off in an endless cycle of backstabbing.

At least our current system safe-guards against most of this, and keeps the sanity. The size of the mess is smaller with our current set up.

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In the end, I'm against this idea more than anything. I like the idea of a merger, because as someone (Tat?) pointed out, simpler is often times better.

I like things just how they are, however and don't want to see any changes.

if you had kept reading, or had actually read some of my posts, you'd have seen ideas to keep your own membership secret. Part of my agreement for the dual system was that only the cabal leader would actually know who all the members were, and no one would know who the cabal leader was.

I agree with what Salak has stated 200%.

Salak for Imm! Oh wait he already was one!

If everyone is keeping their membership a secret, then what is the point of brotherhood? What's the point of joining?

If you keep yourself a secret to EVERYONE, then you're playing for cabal/tribunal spells and limiting your RP. I dare say you should be labelled a powergamer, and kicked out because you're avoiding the RP of the cabal, no matter how effed up it will become with dual membership.

If you let too many people know, you're going to be pinned down politically and while the RP may be UTTERLY AMAZING, the playability of the character decreases.

This change destroys the small amount of integrity you have in cabals and tribunals now, which may not be saying much, but at least I think they're still playable.

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In short, everyone will become a spy, a loner, or a victim. I don't like it.

perhaps just remove the oathbreaker flag then? If people want to switch alleigances, nothing wrong with that. An ex hammer who goes home to serve his country, which theoretically could be something other than taslamar, is not beyond thought. Perhaps a ifist in his meditation decides that he is not fit for the life of a monk and would be better serving others as a crusader.

The point of joining any cabal should be about the ideals of the cabal, Dual Membership doesn't change that.



First off, a player can’t be entirely secret from everyone, the leaders will know all members. And to keep yourself secret you and the leaders must choose to do so. The idea that such a choice would then limit RP doesn’t make sense to me. Simply because you would have to option of the secrecy RP and if you no longer wished for such, you can expose yourself to who you wish to.

If you are saying power gamers might use such a tactic, well they might. But they might also choose to tell both the cabal and tribunal they are members of both. Granted this most likely would only work in certain situations such as being a member of the Hammer and Peacekeepers. But they could and openly enjoy the benefits of both. I understand the argument, “what leader would induct a known member of XYZ”. Think about it, the leader would know where that character’s conflicts of interest would be and have open access to the added skills of that character. The leader could avoid putting that character in a conflict of interest and benefit significantly.

Ultimately, there are a number of reasons a character may choose to keep his identity secret and to assume that doing so makes them a power gamer is flawed. Just as important, a power gamer will be a power gamer and will act as such. Dual Membership will not change that but neither will most any other changes. Dual Membership will add many more choices and greater political atmosphere to those of us that enjoy the RP.

Edit: BTW, Cannibal wrote an excellent post addressing many of the secrecy concerns on page 40. I also wrote one on page 39 but I think his is writen more clearly.

Cannibals:
http://www.shatteredkingdoms.org/forums ... &start=390

Mine:
http://www.shatteredkingdoms.org/forums ... &start=380

Lei Kung

It has to. Cabals and tribunals don't have the same goals. One of them has to be an organization of convenience for any dual-wielder. And won't that organization's leader be happy about that?

Lei, I've seen your enthusiasm for this idea, but implementing it right is a huge change. It's not just the trust and secrecy issues you're debating with Salak, but also the balance between joiners and non-joiners, and the balance between alignments.

It's a tall cliff to jump off of, and I've not seen nearly enough to convince me our parachute is in good order, let alone whether the jump is a good idea in the first place. I'd like to look at other options to improve SK first.

"It has to. Cabals and tribunals don't have the same goals"

Look at how cabals and tribunals are allied.

MC is a cabunal.

Hammer always backs peacekeepers and vice versa (classically, I realize a VERY few instances have occured where this isn't true)

Talons and fist almost always stand together.

Guardians and druids usually stand together.

CoN and adepts usually stand together. (yes adepts are techniqually in uxmaln now shut up)

I realize there have been some clashes in the past between these, but almost all cabals have a history of being married to the tribunal in their land. I also realize that these cabal and tribunals have their little arguments, but when it boils down to war in a land, 99% of the time that cabal will back that tribunal.

Dual membership offers the ability to completly disengage this, or it allows a person to completly submerge the two depending on which cabal/tribunal combination they go for. It also opens up massive opportunities for harlequins and, actually, any of the cabals to further their own agendas in other lands.

Hammer of light members can openly join the police forces of other nations or secretly join them and do what they can to bring the light to darkness.

The fist can join as mediators and judges in tribunals.

Harlequins have unlimited options for chaos by working with in the ranks of law enforcement.

Adepts have unlimited options for their lust of destruction and desecration by having access to the inner workings of governments.

Druids can work from cities to bring about balance or if they are more militant, destroy said cities.

Who knows what a diverged MC's goals would be from the legions, but im sure they'd have their own shadowy reasons for wanting to gain power in a tribunal.


Look what tribunal's could get from getting said members if they were open about it.

You'd have a harlequin spy at your disposal, someone able to go anywhere and spy on anyone and cause chaos in land's you're at war with.

You'd have a hammer of light member, specifically trained in combat to defend your city.

You'd have trained mediators and martial artists willing to fairly uphold the law (if fairness is what you want)

ect. ect. ect. (edit: I forgot my third the king and I ect.)

I really think it would rule.

I was originally opposed to this idea, but after reading Cannibal's post, I'm down for it and do support this.