Shattered Kingdoms

The subtype system is neat but it doesn't leave enough room for superior weapons of similar subtypes to be better. It would be cooler if all pikes for example, had similar speed/accuracy/damage, but there was room for imms to make slight buffs or wimps based on how strong the item is designed to be. There are too many named and supposedly strong weapons that nobody uses or would ever use, because they are of a [REDACTED] subtype.

That's what materials and things such as flaring light attacks are for. I like your idea though, and I think there should be more subtypes that are available in better materials or have different damage types.

The idea of being able to make slight adjustments to make items better than others doesnt really work. No builder really wants to put a lot of time into building an object that never gets used. The majority will end up buffed and the minority will just be left on NPCs.

How ever on sub types, there are some sub types that are just plain better than other sub types of the same group. Longsword vs Khopesh or Flamberge vs greatsword for example. There is no incentive for the slower weapon wielders like a Paladin to consider a long sword over a Khopesh. So why do people even make swords that arnt the superior sub type. It just doesnt make a whole lot of sense. It would make sense if these weapons although stronger in battle where impossible to make special. Ie no adamantite (too hard to make tricky objects out of) no scripts and no strange damage types. It would bring these lesser weapons back into the game as being useful. Adamantite Longsword vs mithril Khopesh people would have to make choices.

I know there are limits on the better sub types how ever I would like to see the numbers behind this and do they actually work. I see the same people again and again with the same items and weapons are no different. Limiting the numbers of these items only serves to stack the balance harder in the favor of people who hoard and twink.

I would like to see armor remodeled on a similar system with different armor types and materials stacking up differently again weapons. Longswords are still good because they are better for getting around X type of armor than other swords. This puts sub type preference dependent on the kinds of armor people are wearing. Which will change as the users of weapons change to beat them. Creating a cycle of different weapons and different armors being best. I know such a job would be massive. Im all for lending what aid I can in making this happen. At the moment Im finding more and more SK is a static game. Although there are tactics the more I look into there are fewer and fewer counter tactics that are viable options. At least as far as weapon.

Paladins that use haste won't even care about the speed difference in a longsword and khopesh.

Under the weapon system a paladin with three attacks should be more inclined to use a slower weapon that does more damage. A khopesh just doesnt fit because its a faster, harder hitting, more accurate weapon its better for everyone than a longsword (unless the information Im working from is wrong its not exactly new data). When you compare a longsword and falchion one is quicker but the other one does more damage. A person with four attacks might have the advantage wielding a quicker weapon. How ever the slower Paladin has no use for the extra speed so choses the best option for him the extra damage. When one sub type (of the same type) is just better in all respects to another one becomes redundant.

Try comparing a katana and kama.

I think everyone agrees that there are some problems in the subtype system, but it is hard to come up with ways that fix it without a lot of complaining, RP fudging, or a ton of work. I know that if certain weapons suddenly lost their scripts and attack type due to the subtype being determined to be overpowered a lot of people would complain either because “it has been that way through history” or just because they like their weapons of awesomeness.

Yeah it doesn't make any sense and we all agree. An expertly forged adamantite longsword is going to be superior in all regards to a mass produced tanso steel khopesh.

Not really, it's just harder and harder ain't everything.

-mind just went to gutter...better ender this post immediatly-

I'm inclined to agree as well. I used a Cold Iron longsword for quite sometime and then I got my hands on a steel khopesh. Even though I was fighting a half elf (who is weak to iron / cold iron right?) The khopesh actually done quite a bit more damage when both were equally as enchanted.

I too would like to see some subtypes either buffed or some things revamped.

Also, Material has a lot more than just durability and toughness. Just like in real life, various types of steel have flaws and strengths.

Some steels, such as Damascus I believe, if that is indeed a steel, generally holds a better edge and doesn't dull as easy. Over all it's sharper and more lethal than an edge made of Iron or a cheaper low quality carbon steel. Adamantite vs tanso steel would be no exception. The adamantite should be more lethal due to 1. Durability 2. Sharper edge and 3. Better craftsmanship as the material would undoubtedly be harder to work with.

It's like comparing a Samurai sword using the folded steel technique with an english cutlass or longsword.

Few questions, I haven't played in quite a while, and didn't ever really play a class that had to worry to much about subtypes after the system came out.

1. Does weapon speed affect anything at all, other than the amount of attacks you get with the weapon?

2. Does accuracy have a cap? Or could you hypothetically get so much accuracy that you parried every attack and never missed an attack? (I know this isn't possible, but hypothetically speaking)

3. Is weapon speed relative based on the number of attacks a class gets? Or is it simply standardized across the board?

IE: A Falchion in my experience gives a solid 3 attacks a round, sometimes 4, without finesse or specialize. So if you're a merc with 4 attacks, you max out at the 4, with 3 being your normal. If you are a paladin with only 3 attacks however, do you usually get 2, and max out at 3? Or since it's a 3 attack weapon for the mercenary, does that also make it a 3 attack weapon for the paladin? Even though his maximum capacity for attacks is only 3?

4. Swashbucklers only get 2nd attack. They gain 4 attacks by attacking twice with each hand. Does this mean that they can use really slow weapons like longswords and still get 4 attacks easily? 2 with the mainhand, 2 with the offhand? Or do they still need to use exceptionally fast weapons to get all 4 attacks?

If weapon speed only affects the speed of the weapon and nothing else, perhaps it should like affect parry chance along with accuracy? The faster your weapon is, the faster you can recover from an attack and get it up to parry incoming blows.

Also, perhaps weapon damage should affect chance to be parried as well. Usually the highest damage weapons are large, and quite heavy. I just don't see something like a Sai parrying a great-axe with ease, simply because it's more accurate.

I do agree with Rial though, weapons of better material, despite being the same subtype, should still do more damage than weapons of an inferior material. Wood simply cannot gain as sharp an edge as diamond can, etc...

I think all weapon subtypes should have tiers for damage based on material, and compare the same as they do now to other subtypes, but be tiered based on material.

IE:

A mithril Epee is here.
A wood Epee is here.
A mithril Lance is here.
A wood Lance is here.

A mithril epee looks equally accurate as a wood epee.
A mithril epee looks equally deadly as a wood epee.
A mithril epee looks equally fast as a wood epee.

A mithril Lance looks equally accurate as a wood lance.
A mithril Lance looks more deadly than a wood lance.
A mithril Lance looks equally fast as a wood lance.

A mithril epee looks more accurate than a mithril lance.
A mithril epee looks less deadly than a mithril lance.
A mithril epee looks faster than a mithril lance.

A mithril epee looks more accurate than a wood lance.
A mithril epee looks equally deadly as a wood lance.
A mithril epee looks faster than a wood lance.

That way, whenever you get a really good material weapon of one subtype, even if it is usually inferior damage to another weapon of a different subtype when made of the same material, it becomes significally more deadly than that same weapon when made with a [REDACTED] material.

Maybe not something so drastic as an epee being more deadly than a lance, no matter what the material, but for instance, I could definately see an energy/adamantite katana, doing more damage than something like a copper longsword. Even if that same katana would do less damage when made of copper.

I think material should only affect damage though, not accuracy or weapon speed.

But this would encourage people to once again go after the previously highly sought after energy/adamantite weapons, even if they have less than desirable subtypes, simply because the material they are made out of would significantly up there damage, when compared to all the cold iron/tanso steel crap that people are running around with now a days.