Shattered Kingdoms

Best I could do, get someone more creative to throw something in:



First a few changes:

1.)Put riposte at a lower level, it's like a better parry. Put it at expert. A swashbuckler will -never- use skirmish.

2.)Make it so taunt only affects the INT of the target, targetted chars may therefore flee, and make it hit the -WHOLE- group, this idea taken from the BARD and flamestrike... This is their environmental talent, [REDACTED] off a whole inn.

I don't think it's fair for them to immediately lure a whole inn to attack them, but you certainly can distract them all.

3.)

This needs to be buffed, Swashbucklers should get some much more serious bonus points to beating armor and defensive skills and disarming, this should be a huge strength for swashbucklers and it's not yet.

I know this is what finesse already is "supposed to do..." But I think it needs to be a lot better.

I also do not see enough of this bypassing of heavy armor benefit that The Cannibal is talking about. And I disagree with Archaicsmurf too.

Additionally, the aiming bit that gilgon suggested is too much, too easy to remove arms, finess should take care of this! I think this is a fair compromise between gilgon and what's there now.

Finess is supposed to be the -SOUL- of a swashbuckler.

Second, the new skills:

4.)Something to match circle stab is needed: Gilgon's Brutal slice is interesting and very similar, but it's almost exactly like the idea of circle stab and hamstring. But if it ain't broke don't fix it. I like the name "FLANK ATTACK" or "FLANKING." Since that's what it is, in reality. Command: Flank <person>.

5.)Something to stun: High kick is a good idea. Make it similar to bash, similar lag time etc. I would make it very similar, perhaps a tiny bit harder to land, and it should also have a rare chance to -disarm- your opponent. Then again I think bash should too, but this much more so. This gives them a stunner.

6.)Something special: Make it so that you can't aim at someone behind a swashbuckler, call it what you would like. Makes them good tanks and helps defend those behind.

7.)A high damage initial attack: This is needed/not needed depending on how much you buff Finess, but in all honesty, since that won't happen, I propose something like: "Quick Draw" attack. Starts combat, good initial damage, can't be counterattacked maybe? I love this idea. Very swashbuckling.

Lastly:
Something to make a swashbuckler interesting to play outside fighting: Support Talents, aka the thing that Swashbucklers really need:

Proposal 1: honestly, flying? Flying? I'm tired of everyone DBZ soaring around Sk. We need some more ships and stuff like that in this game. Swashbucklers might be optimal for some kind of sailing skill etc. Dude, so much better. And it's USEFUL.

A series of boat skills crosses my mind as serious potential.

Proposal 2: I've always wanted to see some kind of timed explosives in this game, some way to craft weapons of this nature? Traps and bombs? Might be OP tho...

Anyone got any more ideas. Boats are a big one.

Up until this point, I don't think anyone was arguing that swashbucklers were weak. Now Ezeant is going full-bore on this tact. What's up with that? Does anyone else agree with it?

Riposte used to be the bomb. When did it supposedly get so weak? Someone mentioned weapon sub-types, but I'm assuming Cannibal had actually played one since then. Weapon sub-types are old hat.

The number of weapon combos a swashbucklers can use and be effective is extremely small. It usually comes down to like only 3-4 different combos.

As syndal said:

The number of effective weapon combinations are small. I think that the amount of damage a swashi does is relatively poor. I think they're more than a little weak.

And really boring to play, no support-type skills.

Griffon swashies ftw.

I played my swashi well after the weapon subtypes.

I'm just as confused as you are Dulrik. I don't know why Ezeant thinks they suck so much. Granted they have a limited roll, but that are extremly effecient at that role. When you get right down to it, Mercs and barbs only bash in melee. The swashi's job is to taunt and tank. Granted mercs do have a few good things to do like rallying cry and retreat. Barbs uh...bash..and uh...fury? What's the complaint?

This whole crap of comparing them to rogues and scouts is bs. That's comparing apples and oranges. Both of those classes have their combat roll and they perform it. Swashis do not need a high damaging focus attack like rogues have. Thats stupidly over powered.

Now I could easily get behind NON-combat skills for swashis. They do sorely need some of those. For combat however, they are already rediculous if you're competent. Now, you'd think that with such a simple roll, you couldn't possibly suck as a swashbuckler, but believe it or not, it's possible. I've seen it countless times. I think Ezeant may just be in that category of people that suck with them. I can provide you with many logs of my mentor/master swashi owning large groups and even an entire city solo or with only one person in the group with him. So I know for a fact that they are beastly in combat. I might also point out Arsilan. While I hated the way Ardith does pk, I must bow to his prowess with the class.

There's a huge difference between a class not being "fun" to play and a class being underpowered. Swashbucklers are far from being underpowered. I personally consider them as pushing the easy button.

As far as being limited to weapon combos, well...that really depends on your perspective. I had about 5 different combos dependent on the situation. I found that many weapons that people didn't consider to be the "best" could easily be subbed in with little performance difference until an upgrade could be found though.

Anyway, the stuff about them being underpowered is nonsense, but they do need more non-combat/utility skills.

I won't bother to read through the whole thread.

But what I gather is one problem some people have with swashies, is that mechanics and PK-wise they are relatively boring to use. Taunt, trip and dirt kick being really the only skills left to the user to utilize.

Having played quite a few swashies, I know they are far from weak.
In the hands of even a newer player, are an all round fighting class. And in the hands of a skilled player, they are just as dangerous as mercs and barbs. With my sprite swash Strai, I could grab the free armor from Elisair and a couple average weapons and still tank just as much as everyone else, while fully prepped he dropped a mentor/master rank giant barb in three rounds.

As it is, I'm quite happy with swashies as a class.

Alright. I'll ceed to The Cannibal since I haven't played a swashbuckler since the changes.

I will however make note that taunt is overpowered and that I think you could introduce some more versatility to the class. And I still think they're somewhat weak compared to other classes. One new damage type skill for them would be nice.

But...

The fact then still remains that they have little non-combat utility.

This is something I'd really like to see. Question is what do you think is an appropriate non-combat utility.

Give them persuade, and give bards a real mentor skill.

I can agree with the fact that they can be somewhat boring, which is why I started the thread. It was the weakness comment that ambushed me.

My ideas so far are:
1. Separate the effects of taunt into two different skills.
2. Add a roundhouse kick skill to let you get in two hits when using kick.
3. Give them at least one new non-combat skill. I liked the idea of a streetwise skill that somehow lets them locate other people.