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 Post subject: The Battle Bard! Tips / advice please?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:57 pm 
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So yeah. A while back I heard a few people talking about how bards are absolute ownage and such and even a solo bard when played right can do well in PK. Now I'm not a big pk'er as everyone knows, but I'd like to learn to hold my own at least..

So, for all those experienced players out there, can you give me any tips on playing a bard and PK'ing with one? Any would be much appreciated. Weapons, etc. Any help is -much- appreciated. Thanks all.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:47 pm 
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I'm not the best PKer (alright, I'm terrible at it) but here's what I've learned about using a solo bard:

1. Defensive stance: The strength of a bard's power chord is unaffected by the stance he or she takes.

2. F minor: The F minor chord hits everybody in the same room (including a pet, but if you're a solo bard, that's not a problem), does some decent damage, and staggers them. When someone's staggered over and over again, they cannot do anything (it's like being tripped). Unless they know about F minor, their loss will probably be excused as lag (in their mind)

3. Dance/songs o' sleep/Disarm: Suppose you don't want everybody in the room attacking you when you use the F minor. Songs of Sleep while dancing will effectively make anybody disarm-able (even if they're masters at a weapon you can't train) and it will cut down their ability to dish out damage to you by a lot.

3 1/2. Disarm: There are very few things a bard can do while both singing and dancing (can't trip, dirt, use scrolls, order a pet, etc.) two things are doable, that I've noticed: using throwing weapons (which I found out quickly was...well, worthless.), and disarming.

4. Battlewhip: A solo bard without a pet will already hit beyond the pet in the enemy formation, and the battlewhip (being a whip) gives a bonus to disarm (not to mention the number of impressive battlewhips available).

5. B augmented Sixth: This chord hits everyone in the same room, as well as adjacent rooms (that means you can hit them again if they try to flee). I'm still trying to get a feel for the damage done, but it's about 60% the strength of Harm according to the tests so far. It also has a chance to deafen anyone who hears it, which is a double-edged sword. Magic-users and bards who are deafened are rendered near useless. But, any deaf opponent gains two small advantages: the bard's songs no longer effect them, and any power chords the bard uses only do half damage.

6. (most important, and obvious) Scrolls: Finger of Death, Etherealform, Mirror Image, etc etc etc

7. Persuade: Now that there's an advanced persuade trainer, I feel that persuade should get a mention. It's not the best for PK because of the lag time after it, the amount of ME it takes, and it's tendency to... fail. However, if you're feeling lucky, you could persuade a swashbuckler to taunt his ally, or a priestess to harm herself, or heal you. [I guess one CANNOT persuade a mage to c 'final strike'] Yet another downside to this skill is that it doesn't work when you're in combat, or (and I might be wrong) your target is in combat.

8. Persuade again: Now for the practical uses of Persuade: (and OA would be upset if I didn't mention this first one) Magical assistance. Persuading NPC priests and sorcerers to give you shield, armor, prayer, and whatever little fun goodies your little heart desires. The only other PK applicable thing worth mentioning about Persuade is that it goes through the planes (you can hit ethereal people with it.). Your first thought is probably "I can use it to get rid of somebody's etherealform" while that's true, that also means that if you're ethereal, and they're not, you have as many tries as it takes to start the battle with the persuasion you want. (since a failed persuade results in the opponent attacking you)

huh... I feel good about myself (until somebody comes in, number crunches, and shows flaws in each of my paragraphs... I hope to the Imms that it's Parnys)


Last edited by laeZ1 on Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:48 pm 
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Location: Dänimarka
Also, join a tribunal.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:24 pm 
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Yes! Join the guardians.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:05 am 
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You can't actually persuade final strike. That functionality was taken out to prevent abuse either before bards got put in or shortly after. Also you can't persuade anything "all" so no remove all, release all, order all or anything similar to that.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:19 am 
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Welcome back, Kin.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:17 am 
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Location: Columbia, South Carolina
SK Character: Pilnor, Surrit, Berr, Rall
persuade sorc c petrification self. Yeaaah.

Scrolls, songs, chords, and a tribunal. Learning to find and use (or have scribed) powerful scrolls as a bard is ridiculous, as is joining a tribunal. The thing about joining a tribunal is that unlike pets and charmed NPCs, if you use f minor in the room with a trib NPC, they won't leave your group (But they will aggro you if you're within reach, I think), which allows bards to have a killing skill for even back row flying characters.

Usually though, songs of sleep is good enough to own the faces of melee characters, and good enchantments will keep you alive long enough to mess up spellcasters.


You just have to be careful: Bards are a high finesse class, and even the slightest mistake in PvP is pretty unforgivable.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:22 am 
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RE:4 - I'm not convinced of a whip's bonus to disarm. Regardless, there are some very impressive bwhips out there, and it's probably the bard's best weapon.

RE:5 - Unless you've already got them on the run, and almost dead, don't B Aug unless you feel like dying a horrible death. The lag is too long to allow you to chase if your B Aug doesn't kill, and will draw every NPC for rooms around if you're trying to use it to start combat. Again, the lag is too long to give you time to get away as a starter (say, to try to continuously chord from a room away from your intended targets), and given the relatively low HP of bards, the swarm of NPCs will kill you fast, let alone the opponents you're intending to hit. This chord is a leveling or coin farming tool only. The drawbacks are far, far too heavy to make it useful in pk in all but the rarest situations.

RE:2 - This chord is particularly useful in one on one (like that happens all that often anymore) or one on two situations. If you wait until your pet is attacking the enemy (and are just looking to take down the caster behind your melee opponent fast), then you can at least get a little use out of this chord before it kills your own pet. With a little art, and luck, you can shut your opponent down as effectively as spamming bash, with less lag.

RE:1 - Depending on race, this is potentially the best defense for a bard (get it?). I'm not entirely convinced the bonuses stack with dancing defensive bonuses, but my gut reaction is that they do.

RE:3 - Dancing is your friend. Your best friend. Use it. Yes, it takes out your dirt-kicking, tripping, and fleeing, but the defensive/offensive bonuses it grants are worth that hit. Whether you combine it with singing or not depends on if you think you'll need to quaff or recite. In group PK, sing, in solo-pk, chord/quaff/recite is probably going to be more useful to you than songs. Still, songs of sleep is potent, and can really turn the tide of a battle that might otherwise be close cut against you.

RE:6 - Get lots of scrolls. Get double-scribed scrolls. Get a huge, huge variety of scrolls. Alias the use of each. Keep them handy, and replace any you use. There are lots of store-bought scrolls that are worth their cost. Use them with wild abandon. Scrolls are almost as much your friend as dancing, if for different reasons.

RE:7 - I would never bother with persuade in solo PK, with the possible exception of when under the effect of a strong or better ethform scroll. In group PK, it's not a bad tactic if you find yourself as third-row support, but I wouldn't bother spamming it. Try once, if it fails, use more effective tactics. This was true BEFORE there was an advanced trainer. People were just too lazy or didn't care to spend the 136134621346 hours it took to master persuade before said trainer existed. Also, you CAN persuade someone else already in combat, but you CAN'T persuade if you yourself are in combat, hence its use only if you are third row support.

RE:8 - Ask other bards for good NPCs to get buffs from. Some buffs are worth the hassle of visiting GM NPCs for, others aren't level-dependent and you can get them from just about any NPC in the right areas. As a bard with the persuade skill trained at all, there is absolutely no excuse not to go around fully buffed at all times. It takes roughly five or ten minutes depending on how malicious the RNG feels as far as persuade successes go to get a full run of buffs that can, in some cases, exceed that provided by being in a tribunal. I repeat, there is no excuse whatsoever for not having those buffs once you reach a point where you can get them. Get them as soon as you log in, and if they drop for some reason, replace them asap. Combined with scrolls and vials, a bard can be the single most prepped class in the game, hands-down, without relying on tribunal membership.

RE: JvJ - This suggestion, I presume, is for the ability to be third row because the only other major benefit to this is moot with bardic skills. This isn't a terrible suggestion, but a quick-thinking bard who keeps himself prepared shouldn't need this edge, and in many cases it will actually decrease a bard's effectiveness (though not survivability).

Other suggestions include:

Wear dragonscale and get relatively strong vials of MV. There's tonnes of mithril out there, when you include skins and such, but DS skins are a little easier to get a whole suit of, especially if you're enchanting in a picky way (something I strongly suggest you do). Don't ever enchant a bard for MR. Ever. Aside from making most buffs too much of a hassle to get, you're going to need to quaff with relative frequency if you find yourself taking hits (IE, spamming quaff heal with the occasional recite thrown in if you get lucky with dodges enough to stop the hemorrhage of HPs).

Use a bwhip whenever possible. Parry without e-parry will not give you a significant amount of additional survivability if you suddenly find yourself front row, so I wouldn't fret too hard about losing it by using a no-parry weapon. Although you can't disarm from second row (even with a reaching weapon like a bwhip, which is mentally challenged), there is the questionable argument that whips give you a bonus to that skill's success if you find yourself front row.

Don't persuade in law-areas. Even if successful, the NPC will wander off to the judge pronto, and you'll find yourself outlawed probably before the lag wears off.

Don't ever use songs of death in pk. It might be useful if you are fighting alongside three or four other bards, but solo, you're wasting your time. Even dancing, it won't have any significant effect on your enemy. You're just asking to die if you bother with this song. In fact, the only real reason to use this song is very early leveling, and to master it to the point where you can learn the other lyrics if you're obsesssive about lyric collecting.

Songs of silence can really shut down a caster, especially a necromancer if you can land the entrancement on them before they get an "o all" off (this is not easy). It doesn't, however, stop them from zapping. It's also foolishly heavy in concentration. Obviously, there's no real reason to use this v melee classes. Fist skills also aren't shut down by this song (despite that the various yell echoes that accompany these skills are supposedly necessary).

Songs of war and protection are actually rather useful at high-levels, if you're supporting a group. Not so much in solo (sleep, or silence will be more useful in these situations when you're not chording or quaff/reciting), but as support songs they're great.

If you find yourself thinking you need to start singing songs of healing, quaff word and gtfo of Dodge. There is no way in hell this song will even touch the kind of damage you'd have to be taking. Maybe, MAYBE, if you have a trio or more will this song be of use in PK, but never solo, not even as a support song in a group.

Songs of dancing LOOKS from the description in the helpfile like a remarkably helpful song, but unless you're a third row supporter in PK, and fighting a bunch of people will low to no enchants, then it won't be as useful as, say, sleep. The only, only advantage is the prevention of fleeing, but if you're already third-row support, then you should be relying on bashers for that anyways. Casters will probably just have word vials to escape the effects, or will die before they can type flee if their tank dies anyways. In large group v group, I've seen it effectively used only once, and that was a scenario that was extremely limited in scope. In solo pk, songs of sleep will do just about everything useful this song will do, and better.

Occasionally ignore what tips and advice you get in this thread, and practice switching between songs in different situations or using different tactics in combination on your own. Not only does an effective bard have to know when to change tactics and what tactics to change to under stress, but it helps to know exactly what kind of effectiveness each of the tactics available to you do, first-hand, not just from the suggestions of other more experienced bard players.

Don't be daunted by the huge list of skills, songs, and (race/cabal dependant) spells available to you. Many, many of those are ineffective or unusable in many situations. Just learn what few tactics work in which situations, and focus on pulling those out of your bag of tricks in the correct combinations under stress.

I just got off work and am exhausted, so I'm potentially missing a few pointers. If I think of anything else later, I'll add it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:26 am 
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Edoras wrote:
persuade sorc c petrification self. Yeaaah.


Doesn't work. I'll let you figure out why.

Edoras wrote:
is ridiculous, as is joining a tribunal. The thing about joining a tribunal is that unlike pets and charmed NPCs, if you use f minor in the room with a trib NPC, they won't leave your group (But they will aggro you if you're within reach, I think), which allows bards to have a killing skill for even back row flying characters.


They will attack you if they can reach you. It will also make their already somewhat limited survivability significantly lower.

Edoras wrote:
You just have to be careful: Bards are a high finesse class, and even the slightest mistake in PvP is pretty unforgivable.


+1


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:30 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:43 am
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Location: Columbia, South Carolina
SK Character: Pilnor, Surrit, Berr, Rall
OA makes very good points.

Also, it says in the helpfile that unparryable weapons provide a bonus to disarm attempts, and I disarmed pretty reliably while wielding a flail as Braxis. I always wanted to roll a hammer specced in an unparryable weapon that just constantly disarmed people.

Help disarm wrote:
There are a variety of modifiers that affect the success of a disarm attempt,
including both parties skills with the weapons involved, the accuracy of those
weapons, and relative strength and dexterity. Certain types of weapons provide
additional bonuses or penalties on a disarm check. Unparryable weapons provide
a bonus to disarm attempts while two-handed weapons provide a better defense.


Also... I wonder if persuading a sorc to enchant armor or recharge would work. That'd be a deadly PvP tactic.


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