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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:44 am 
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JeanValjean wrote:
juggernaut wrote:
If they are ethereal, especially by a scroll, they can't charm you or do anything to you. Backstab is there for a reason (3rd row). Dirt kick will still work. Taunt and feeble-mind too. There are still many ways to avoid/negate a charm. And charm has already been nerfed since there are not much you are allowed to do with your charmie, like force them to die, drop him over cities etc like before.


I believe Konge mentioned etherealform as a measure against that entire list of things that are oh so easy to kill a sorc with, in order to contrast how relatively easy it is to protect yourself against those things, with how relatively impossible it is to protect yourself against charm person.

Also, you don't even play SK anymore do you Juggs? You have no idea what it's like out there man! *jaded veteran alcoholic drug-user voice/eyes*


I agree with JvJ. Backstabbing, dirt kicking, taunting, these are all negated by mirror image. And even dirt kicking won't work against a sorc who had the smarts to train DEX instead of wanting to hoard and train STR. Third row dirt kick is very unlikely against high dex.

But answer me this question, and then I'd like to know whether the spell is overpowered. Is there any veteran player who would rather have any scribed spell besides charm? Moreover, is there any veteran player who would take any class spell over charm? If your only answer is animate dead, then you're reinforcing my point.

scribed FoD doesn't kill outright, unless you're an elf with poor enchants (In my experience).
scribed sleep/feeblemind may work, but are also will saves and doesn't guarantee death like charm person does.
Scribed petrification might be nice comparatively, but it does allow your opponent to get away when depetrified.
Scribed dispel/blind/weaken/curse/poison/deafen/slow/etc etc don't hold a candle, for reasons below.

Every other offensive spell in the game besides Charm person and Petrification either does damage, or applies some sort of debuff to the target. But why would anyone choose feeblemind/dispel/blind/deafness/weaken/curse/poison/slow/ anything over charm? Why just weaken your opponent when you could have an equal shot of instantly winning your fight? I personally would like to see these spells make a comeback in SK, but as it stands, there's no reason to scribe these to anything when charm scrolls are accessible.

When skills and spells are first changed in a game, it takes a measure of time for the overpowered ones to stand out. At first, everyone uses everything about the same because of their lack of knowledge of what is best, but over time people start finding the OP skills and utilizing them solely. It's the same reason that everyone runs around with lions/destriers, and why everyone started picking up the yaris from Kuniyoshi when they were first implemented. Now, everyone runs around (If they can) with charm scrolls. Why? Because it's overly powerful compared to any other scribed or cast offensive spell. The only other scribed/cast offensive spells worth having next to it are A) Fear, as its group effect and messes things up, and B) A select few IC scrolls that deal some good damage.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:58 am 
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JeanValjean wrote:
Also, you don't even play SK anymore do you Juggs? You have no idea what it's like out there man! *jaded veteran alcoholic drug-user voice/eyes*


You can't really know if I am playing SK anymore, can you JvJ? And you can't really know if our characters have interacted, can you? No! *snickers among the pretentiously jaded voice*


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:04 am 
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Turon wrote:
JeanValjean wrote:
juggernaut wrote:
If they are ethereal, especially by a scroll, they can't charm you or do anything to you. Backstab is there for a reason (3rd row). Dirt kick will still work. Taunt and feeble-mind too. There are still many ways to avoid/negate a charm. And charm has already been nerfed since there are not much you are allowed to do with your charmie, like force them to die, drop him over cities etc like before.


I believe Konge mentioned etherealform as a measure against that entire list of things that are oh so easy to kill a sorc with, in order to contrast how relatively easy it is to protect yourself against those things, with how relatively impossible it is to protect yourself against charm person.

Also, you don't even play SK anymore do you Juggs? You have no idea what it's like out there man! *jaded veteran alcoholic drug-user voice/eyes*


I agree with JvJ. Backstabbing, dirt kicking, taunting, these are all negated by mirror image. And even dirt kicking won't work against a sorc who had the smarts to train DEX instead of wanting to hoard and train STR. Third row dirt kick is very unlikely against high dex.

But answer me this question, and then I'd like to know whether the spell is overpowered. Is there any veteran player who would rather have any scribed spell besides charm? Moreover, is there any veteran player who would take any class spell over charm? If your only answer is animate dead, then you're reinforcing my point.

scribed FoD doesn't kill outright, unless you're an elf with poor enchants (In my experience).
scribed sleep/feeblemind may work, but are also will saves and doesn't guarantee death like charm person does.
Scribed petrification might be nice comparatively, but it does allow your opponent to get away when depetrified.
Scribed dispel/blind/weaken/curse/poison/deafen/slow/etc etc don't hold a candle, for reasons below.

Every other offensive spell in the game besides Charm person and Petrification either does damage, or applies some sort of debuff to the target. But why would anyone choose feeblemind/dispel/blind/deafness/weaken/curse/poison/slow/ anything over charm? Why just weaken your opponent when you could have an equal shot of instantly winning your fight? I personally would like to see these spells make a comeback in SK, but as it stands, there's no reason to scribe these to anything when charm scrolls are accessible.

When skills and spells are first changed in a game, it takes a measure of time for the overpowered ones to stand out. At first, everyone uses everything about the same because of their lack of knowledge of what is best, but over time people start finding the OP skills and utilizing them solely. It's the same reason that everyone runs around with lions/destriers, and why everyone started picking up the yaris from Kuniyoshi when they were first implemented. Now, everyone runs around (If they can) with charm scrolls. Why? Because it's overly powerful compared to any other scribed or cast offensive spell. The only other scribed/cast offensive spells worth having next to it are A) Fear, as its group effect and messes things up, and B) A select few IC scrolls that deal some good damage.


I'd rather kill someone than charm them, IMO.

I've had several people that are charmed summoned away from me and me losing my chance to rp and/or kill them.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:29 am 
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Remove all, drop all takes about two seconds. After that if they get summoned away it really doesn't matter.

Then you can just eject them from the group and order them to splatter themselves on the nearest NPC.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:04 am 
Turon wrote:
Remove all, drop all takes about two seconds. After that if they get summoned away it really doesn't matter.

Then you can just eject them from the group and order them to splatter themselves on the nearest NPC.


You forgot junk all.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:54 am 
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juggernaut wrote:
Oh, there's an entire thread about it, so I will repeat:

The rivers never dry out in this game, do they? :devil:

P.S. In the end, if you are fighting against a sorc and the first thing you do is not dirt kick him/taunt him/do something that prevents him from targeting you with a charm spell, you are ... special.


P.S. I play a GM sorc with max art and mastered charm. I haven't been pked in months, and I've killed plenty of people by using charm. I'm not crying any rivers. I'm pointing out a flaw in the game.

And any sorc worth his salt has MI up, making dirt kick a low-percentage tactic. Not to mention most sorcs would have SS, and if they know they're going against a swashie, they'll be modded out of the intelligence penalty from taunt, to deal with the off chance that it lands.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:59 am 
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Stone skin doesn't stop dirt, it just looks like it does if someone fails the dirt kick, because stone skin also has a damage counterpart that is negated by stone skin. But your point still stands.

Not to mention high dex + haste will make you virtually impossible to dirt kick on the back row. Crap, people missed dirt kicks on my 4 dex centaur warlock on the third row half the time.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:03 am 
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Every time I've had SS up, and someone has tried to dirt kick me, their attack has been deflected by SS. I cannot accept that this is because every time someone dirt kicks me, they get the near-miss dirt kick that does damage but doesn't blind you. Until I see a log of someone with SS getting blinded by dirt kick, I won't believe it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:08 am 
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http://sk.[REDACTED].com/show_log.php?fe ... ml_parse=0

In particular...
Quote:
You stop flying.

[HP: 92%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
>
[HP: 92%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
> A milky-white male centaur is blinded by the dirt in his eyes!
A Peacekeeper sentinel dodges your attack.
You are no longer invisible.
Your life drain barely touches a Peacekeeper sentinel's chest.
Your life drain barely touches a Peacekeeper sentinel's head.
Your life drain strikes a Peacekeeper sentinel's head.

[HP: 92%] [ME:100%] [PE: 97%]
>
A Peacekeeper sentinel utters the words, 'yrawzgculatz'.
A Peacekeeper sentinel smiles as a legionnaire captain staggers under the impact of his column of fire!

[HP: 92%] [ME:100%] [PE: 97%]
>
The Innkeeper dodges a fire elemental's attack.
A fire elemental's flaming bite burns the Innkeeper's chest.
A fire elemental's flaming bite burns the Innkeeper's right leg.
Your life drain starts to lacerate a Peacekeeper sentinel's head.
Your life drain skims a Peacekeeper sentinel's chest.
Your life drain starts to lacerate a Peacekeeper sentinel's head.
Your life drain strikes a Peacekeeper sentinel's chest.
A fire elemental quickly jumps out of the way as a legionnaire captain kicks dirt into the air.
A legionnaire captain misses a fire elemental.
A fire elemental is unaffected by a legionnaire captain's crush!
A fire elemental dodges a legionnaire captain's attack.
A fire elemental is unaffected by a legionnaire captain's crush!
Savra misses a fire elemental.
A fire elemental is unaffected by Savra's punch!
A fire elemental dodges the Innkeeper's attack.
The Innkeeper punches at a fire elemental's stomach, barely wounding it.
The concierge throws a steel dagger at a milky-white male centaur!
A milky-white male centaur's stony skin deflects the concierge's attack.
The concierge misses a fire elemental.
A Peacekeeper sentinel starts to concentrate.
A Peacekeeper sentinel slashes at a legionnaire captain's left leg, causing a sore wound.
A fire elemental dodges an astral watcher's attack.
Overall, a Peacekeeper sentinel has some big nasty wounds and scratches.


The thing is that every dirt kick does damage, it's just than any MP at all on your gear will completely negate that damage.
If the dirt kick lands on someone with SS, they get the normal dirt kick message.
If a dirt kick misses someone with SS, then whether or not they would have taken damage from the dirt kick, the SS loses a charge and blocks the dirt damage.

At least, that's my interpretation. Given I can't see the code this is obviously conjecture.

Anyways, charm person is still overpowered.


Last edited by Turon on Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:11 am 
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haha. i stand corrected. warlocks suck even more than I thought.


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