Shattered Kingdoms

Bards are a fragile class solowise. We all know this. no shield block, they only get dodge and parry defensive wise. Their songs are also either overpowered or not effective in any way at all. therefore, in my opinion after playing one for some odd 300 hours and mastering most songs, bards need to be reassessed in their abilities and their songs. Heres how I think, and feel free to disagree with me and post your thoughts.

Concentration: First off, bards require an absurd amount of concentration. If you have less than brilliant int, forget songs of sleep and silence. Dancing and singing requires a lot of concentration, so much that a half-elf bard with max int can only sing and dance with a couple of NPCs in the room attacking em. singing songs of sleep, my half-elf with max int can only take 2 NPCs in combat and still loses concentration on songs. (will get to the power of songs later on)

Defenses: Bards wear light armor. The lack of shield block makes em incredibly frail and having only a pet, most require a landy (reaching sword) or a whip. If the latter is used, forget parry. Your only life saver is dodge, which isn't all that great. Mood defensive kills a b-whips offensive power to the point you're better off running.

While on the topic of defenses, the bonuses dance gives needs to be completely looked at. It's so minimal right now that it's better to not dance and trip because even if you still dance, you're going to get bashed and tripped and dirted and hit like a truck. It may just take 1 more time, though usually most NPCs still tend to bash me while dancing easily.

Songs and chords: The variation of songs bards get are great. Songs of dancing, war, healing, they're all neat. However, B aug sixth and F minor is ultimately useless. The reason being is they hit EVERYTHING, even your own group in a room. You have to be completely solo to use em, which means, you will die. (Lack of shield block, light armor. bards have very little survivability front row.) B aug sixth is a strong AoE that hits all rooms around you, but really, use it once and prepare to get owned beyond belief.

While we're on that subject, songs need to be reanalyzed big time. Songs of sleep are overpowered. I've noticed this playing one. First off the affect is unresistable. I actually use it to check if people are hidden or invis because even if tehy are, you get the message "someone looks drowsy." If i'm not mistaken, it can even make people come out of hide. The affect needs to be reduced somewhat or made so it can be resisted.

Songs of silence on the other hand, are a prime staple of what they should be. It's an immensely powerful song, but can be resisted. Usually I can get people with about the 4th line if they have mediocre will power enchants or if they have none, on the 2nd line (it, like other songs has the affect kick in on the 2nd line) and some I've not been able to get it to affec them at all. (Usually ones with massive willpower enchants.)

Songs of dancing, are the exact opposite. These songs sound useful as they make anyone that hears them dance which makes them easier to hit (unless they have dancing as a skill) and also disables fleeing, tripping, etc. The problem becomes, the song is so immensely weak that even with max art as a bard (i had a lot of points left over..) anyone with even a sliver of willpower will resist them. I've seen even apprentice - jman players unaffected by it with just their natural wisdom scores and no enchants..These songs are good for a show, but even if you sing them nine times out of ten, people will yell at you or kill you just for singing them. (annoyance factor.)

Songs of antimagic I've not really gotten to use much. I honestly don't see much affect. Supposedly it lower a players concentration, but it's such a minute hit that unless a person's concentration is pushed to the brink, it really won't do anything.

Persuade: Persuade is fine as it is. An immensely powerful skill that allows bards to gather pretty much any and every buff. The only problem I have with it is it's flagged as an aggressive skill, in which imo it really shouldn't be. It's not like a charm. It's merely asking someone to do something with a bit of magical assistance. It really shouldn't be an aggressive action in my opinion.

These are just my opinions. Now mind you, I completely suck at PK. I'll admit it, but these are just things I've noticed as I've played and my opinions on them. I'd like to see bards have more versatility honestly than just having to sit in a group and sing songs of sleep or silence. Those and songs of healing are the only songs a bard ever uses, and I feel it shouldn't be that way. Feel free to voice your own opinions, agree or disagree etc.

I would also like to add that bards should be able to get a small amount of xp if singing songs of magic or healing in a group. Priests/mages get it for enchanting, scribing, and brewing. Don't understand why it WOULDN'T give you a small amount of XP. That way, bards can have more than one way to gain XP.

Kin. You covered a lot, so my thoughts will be somewhat scattered. My main is currently a bard, so I feel somewhat compelled to respond to the best of my abilities. Keep in mind throughout my response that this is my very first attempt at playing a bard.

Stats (concentration): It's been said before that bards need every single stat because they are just difficult to build, comparable to a hellion or paladin. Constitution and charisma is an absolute necessity. Then it gets tricky. I think there are a few ways you could go, realistically. The concentration needed for dancing and songs is pretty high, but I think it's manageable with mods. So, that implies having a knowledge of mods (but then again, if not, there is lore). Bards are capable of surviving in melee at least long enough to tumble behind a pet and c major something to death.

Defense: Sing songs of sleep. This is why I am on the fence about the claim of it being overpowered. If you can avoid being bashed or tripped, songs of sleep is your best friend. Obviously though, a bard will probably never be able to defeat a high-hp warrior class.

Dance: I agree. The bonus is minute and being bashed and tripped is just as easy as when not dancing.

Chords: B augmented sixth and f minor are powerful chords and there is a certain amount of strategy that goes into using them, but they are far from useless. Part of being a bard (and a capable PKer) is knowing your surroundings. Ive found in many cases, b augmented is strong enough to kill most things it strikes before you get killed by the surge of PCs, as long as you don't get bashed. And, it destroys most spell-casting classes because of the deafen effect.

Songs: Because of the above stated reasons, bards are a complicated class to play and a lot of people wont play them. If they did, countersongs might be seen more. Songs of antimagic are great for early leveling. Songs of sleep and silence are extremely difficult to master, and the chance of singing an off-key note for either is high, and life-threatening in most cases. To miss a note, forget it. Better spend six hours spamming.

I could potentially entertain the idea of having songs of dancing affect everyone (like songs of sleep) and adding that willpower check to songs of sleep. Then again, I really like songs of sleep, so maybe not. Songs of dancing, I will agree, is basically useless because of how weak it is.

Persuade: I think the buff you propose would overpower the skill.

My conclusions? I think you have to be creative to play a bard, and patient. I've basically had to learn the class from scratch, having never played one and there being next to no mentors. Speaking of which, where is Tyna? Everyone loves having a bard for a friend. They are invaluable when brewing, scribing, enchanting, participating in group PK, or adventuring in high-risk places like the wastelands or Iron Citadel. Debuffing songs of sleep would make the last two things on that list invalid, but if there are trade-offs I wouldn't mind. I don't really know what the changes would look like because I don't know enough about balance issues.

EDIT** Oh! I could totally go for some meditation action!

I forgot to mention that I love playing a bard. I don't mind how they are but am not opposed to change. They may be my new favorite class.

The lag of B aug and F minor is enough that any competent pker will be upon you before it's even gone and their first move will be bash. It always is. Not only that, it's limitation is 1 room away, so that's plenty of time for speed dart / run to be right on you. The fact that it even hits your pet means that it's suicide using it to begin with. Even if it does have deafen, the only time you can use it is when you're solo or else your group will be picked apart.

How would making persuade non agro be overpowered? You can't persuade people to drop items or remove things. It's not charm. The most you can do is disband groups etc and most of the times you won't know who the leader is to ask to disband the group (unless you get lucky or know who a common leader is.) As it is now, it's mostly used for buff collecting with the exception of a saavy bard who occasionally does use it as said above.

Regarding concentration, as stated my H-elf has max int and songs of sleep and silence require so much concentration that they can't be maintained while combatting two NPCs. Considering most high end levelling places have groups of NPCs, the moment you enter combat you'll drop it.

I didn't mention countersongs simply because they're perfect as is. The problem with bards is they only realistically have 3 useful things (sleep, healing and silence) and arguably the only useful things. (I rarely see people use songs of war for PK or songs of protection).

In conclusion i'm not saying bards should be total team wreckers solo or so, but they should have some survivability and versatilty that they could use other means besides just songs of sleep and silence in groups. As of now, that's really all they're good for PK wise. B aug sixth and F minor should have some way of only targeting people not in your group or so, kind of like songs of silence. Perhaps have them do that whlie dancing like silence does. As it stands now, using either will kill you and your group.

Having not read a single word of this thread, all I have to say is that *usually* Kin's points are very subjective, self-serving and poorly tested.

That being said, you may proceed.

No they wont (kill you). I've found b augmented to be very useful in many occasions. I've also been successful in PK with it. Obviously not group PK.

In any balanced PK match. 2v2, 3v3, the group with the bard should always win.

pay attention to meeeeee

I agree with you Jen!

I completely agree with what VelvetWinter said. As for the massive chords, and more specifically B augmented 6th, think of necromancers and the effects this chord has. Damage is not always the factor that will screw your opponent.