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What should we do?
Nerf mood defensive 11%  11%  [ 3 ]
Buff/tweak aggressive and neutral 37%  37%  [ 10 ]
It's fine - leave it alone 52%  52%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 27
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 Post subject: Re: Mood Defensive and the Nerf Bat
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Mortal

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 3527
Location: I'm in a glass case of emotion!
SK Character: Retired Troll
A kama specced merc will dish out pretty solid damage while tanking in mood defensive. Mood defensive is l33t for people besides barbarians, though I'll admit that the fury+defensive combo is what makes barbs so tough.

Making it so that barbarians couldn't be mood defensive while furied would make it so that the class could not compete with the other melee choices.

Shamans make decent tanks but their real strengths are in their spells.


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 Post subject: Re: Mood Defensive and the Nerf Bat
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:21 pm
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Location: The yellow brick road
SK Character: Bran
OMG, lets wimp mood defensive because it's the only thing that stands a chance against a sorcerer! How about lets wimp charm person or petrification first? Or other things that actually need a wimp?


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 Post subject: Re: Mood Defensive and the Nerf Bat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:09 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:01 am
Posts: 1302
Location: BFE Arkansas
SK Character: Addison
I am actually going to agree with mundy on this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Mood Defensive and the Nerf Bat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:57 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
Posts: 8220
Location: Redwood City, California
ninja_ardith wrote:
There's some caveats I have with it. It should be nerfed moderately, and then buffed a little. It certainly doesn't work the way that Dulrik posted about it when he originally introduced it.

Can you refresh me about what I originally claimed and how it doesn't do that?

Also, changed the poll so that the third option specifically states "no change necessary".


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 Post subject: Re: Mood Defensive and the Nerf Bat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:48 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm
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Dulrik wrote:
ninja_ardith wrote:
There's some caveats I have with it. It should be nerfed moderately, and then buffed a little. It certainly doesn't work the way that Dulrik posted about it when he originally introduced it.

Can you refresh me about what I originally claimed and how it doesn't do that?

Also, changed the poll so that the third option specifically states "no change necessary".


Quote:
Your stance determines how you react to combat. Aggressive combatants
are more likely to hit and will dish out more damage but are also more
likely to be hit themselves and expend more energy when attacking.

Defensive combatants are less likely to be hit and can concentrate on using
their shield for increased effectiveness and leg defense but have a reduced
rate of attack with both weapons and spells.

Neutral combatants have neither benefits nor penalties.
Stance also affects rescue.


If there's a boost to leg defense then it is so negligible to not even be noticeable. In any case, this is how I deal with people that use the defensive stance in the first place, by taking advantage of the glaring hole in defense that the legs have even while under defensive or a certain cabal skill. It just seems to rob them of any potency whatsoever. I'm probably shooting myself in the foot though as the outrageous boost to armor protection that defensive provides right now being extended to the legs would just make immovable objects out of people that choose to play the role of tank. It's just reminiscent of how tough it was to kill shield users back around 2005-6. This coupled with the increased chance of a bash missing someone on defensive just makes it really tough to actually kill them without a zerg effort.

The problems with it became apparent to me during the time I played my paladin, and found that I could generally go on easy mode through areas like Cain Techt solo, I went to the wastelands with my paladin, and a barbarian friend and we cleaned it out. I pleveled Syn a warlock in about 20 hours by tanking for her in various areas, my favorite being Owyran against a group of 9 so that she could take out groups with the warlock's AoE spellset. There was further evidence of this with Tragonis' paladin Farine because he was certainly playing more aggressively with the defensive stance. Now it's just sprung up into the flavor of the month combo for mercs and barbs, and it certainly is more appealing to play than a spellcaster right now, I'll admit.

Another problem is that it has completely neutered the concept of ranged combat. I'm sure Lothoriel can attest to effectiveness of it with his cloth wearing priest Baba taking minimal damage from a giant scout shooting him. Most of that is due to the increase in dodge and the increased protection from damage, but I can't imagine ranged combat being very effective at all in a PvP sense.

Ideally, I'd like to see it wimped a bit, so that it is not so bad that players have a difficult time doing damage to these guys, but not that it's not a viable option. And I'd like to see increased leg defense! I mean it's possible to get into a lower stance, which I imagine the defensive stance is, low enough to cover your legs with the shield and it get in the way. I'm thinking of spartans in a phalanx formation here!


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 Post subject: Re: Mood Defensive and the Nerf Bat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:23 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:34 am
Posts: 1505
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Spells are the answer for mood defensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Mood Defensive and the Nerf Bat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:34 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm
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And enchant armor is the answer to spells. I certainly don't feel threatened by a spellcaster, and I wouldn't feel threatened by one if I was playing a merc at all.

The only real solution is charm person for a remove all gank, but that's just silly.


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 Post subject: Re: Mood Defensive and the Nerf Bat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:55 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:50 pm
Posts: 3502
Location: Canada
SK Character: Karsh
The increased leg defense of defensive stance equates to the ability to shield block aim lower at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Mood Defensive and the Nerf Bat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:15 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm
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ObjectivistActivist wrote:
The increased leg defense of defensive stance equates to the ability to shield block aim lower at all.


This is simply untrue.

source: http://sk.[REDACTED].com/show_log.php?fe ... l_parse=ON


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 Post subject: Re: Mood Defensive and the Nerf Bat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:44 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:43 am
Posts: 5614
Location: Columbia, South Carolina
SK Character: Pilnor, Surrit, Berr, Rall
That's not a very good example. For one, the 1/3 of the fight where Rorey is in defensive stance, he does block a decent amount of blows from Farine.

For another point, Farine is using the most accurate weapon subtype in the game that also has a lightning based-attack: Which may or may not actually make it easier to hit giants, including the fact that it's also more damaging.


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