Shattered Kingdoms

Basically, it seems like what's happening is that the hellion can remain uninitiated for melee (I imagine the part of the system that lets them keep cleave available) in the 2nd row, and everyone else in the group can fight. As long as that hellion remains uninitiated, everyone in the group is protected by intimidate still - meaning all spellcasters have to make a save against intimidate every time they cast a spell/recite something.

However, from what I've been told by others this has been the case for some time before that change. I couldn't say for sure.

I think the super short answer would be if the group is in combat, even if the hellion isn't, intimidate dies.

That part is the one I was trying to explain. From what I have seen once you fail and intimidate check there is no other check, you are intimidated until it is released or the effect fades. There is no multiple check after you fail intimidate, you are intimidated.

I can't recall for sure but it may also be the case that intimidate requires you to succeed a saving throw for every member of the hellion's group. That is, if I brandish a stave of blindness from the back row of my formation against a hellion and his other 4 group members, I have to succeed on 5 separate saving throws. And once I fail, I can't attack anyone in the hellion's group until the hellion jumps into melee.

From my trolling in A'van keep with one of my chars, to my perception, once I got intimidated by failing to save, I was fully intimidated (no more checks) until I regained my nerve. Jerinx, from what I don't see in your log is you regaining your nerve, because once you get intimidated you cannot attack anyone in that group until you regain your nerve.

Once again, my perspective and adding the information from spider, which seems to support it.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that you or Muktar understand what I'm saying. I'm sorry if there's not a more polite way to put it, and I mean no disrespect when I say that. Let me try to clarify:

If you succeed getting past the intimidate and get the cast off, on the next cast you have to AGAIN make a save against intimidate, and if you succeed...you AGAIN have to save against intimidate. It is not a one-time save success/fail. If you succeed, it's only for that one cast. If you fail, you're out of combat until it wears off. If you succeed, you have to roll the dice to get past intimidate again, unless the hellion enters combat.

This is what I mean by keeping having to save against it. I hope that finally clarifies it for you two.

Also, to jhorleb: it seems that what you say would be correct. Every party member has a save for intimidate, so it makes sense.

You succed, attack, then have to check to attack again. If you succeed the first time you shouldn't have to check the second time.

I though you meant along the lines of how you break sanctuary, just slam against it till it breaks, I was telling you that wasn't an option.

My reading comprehension varies, but I see what you are saying now.

No, you aren't making a save everytime, you failed on your second recite and from then point on you need to regain your nerve before you can go again. Same thing would happen if someone from their cabal base shoots the hellion with an arrow and then moves to another murder hole and shoots them again. Each action is separate. You were not in physical combat with anyone in the other group. Spell casters do have it the worst against hellions because of that. Been that way forever though.

The forums should be allowed to make a saving throw to keep Muktar from posting.

spidermonkey, I'm glad I could make some more sense of it for you. Sorry for any miscommunication.

Muktar: Just because something has been a bug for a long time does not mean it isn't a bug. It needs to be reported, and clarified in such a way that a precise fault-point and solution can be derived from it. Also, I would ask that you please re-read my last post, because I clarified precisely to help dissuade the kind of misunderstanding that appears in what you just wrote.

It seems that anytime before this point that it's been reported, it's been straw manned into an argument against intimidate protecting the group from initiation. That pigeon-holing of a solution/argument would make it be dismissed outright because that's not how intimidate should work.

Muktar, read what he wrote.

He said "on the next cast you have to AGAIN make a save against intimidate, and if you succeed...you AGAIN have to save against intimidate" etc. etc. He has now moved beyond the realm of this specific instance in the log and is speaking hypothetically about what WOULD happen.