Got a Question?

Edoras · **Posted:** Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:44 am

Using a massive carries a penalty to parry and also removes the option to shield block except in very rare cases. Those are both very high drawbacks.

Before massives were implemented, you did just as much damage and tanked a lot better using an epee or shuriken spec than you did with a greatsword or claymore spec, and with the epee or shuriken you also got to use a shield.

WickedWitch · **Posted:** Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:46 am

Edoras wrote:

Using a massive carries a penalty to parry and also removes the option to shield block except in very rare cases. Those are both very high drawbacks.

...Don't be stupid.

You don't use a 2-h weapon to tank, and using any 2-h weapon removes the option to shield block. You know. Cuz they're FREAKING TWO HANDED.

All dogs have four legs; my cat has four legs. Therefore, my cat is a dog.

Nobody uses front row massives, for the same reason that nobody uses front row 2-h that aren't massive. These aren't penalties which are specific to massive weapons.

The only massive weapons that get used are the ones with reach.

Yes, the implementation of massive weapons was needed, and still is to offset the zomg epee/shield combo. That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a downside to using a massive weapon.

There currently is not one that using any other 2-h weapon doesn't have.

Edoras · **Posted:** Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:58 am

Yes there is. All massives innately carry a penalty to parry, unlike non-massives. Before this change, greatsword spec still parried decently well. Now, if you use a massive, you're going to take even more damage because your only avoidance skill, parry, is taking a hit. Dulrik has mentioned that you are less likely to parry others when using a massive weapon.

You do have a point in that ranged massives are now much more desirable than non-massive ranged weaponry: But I would be interested to see the difference between a pike spec versus a bill spec: Given the same enchantments, how much damage does a hasted GM spec'ed character do against a well-prepared defensive opponent when using a pike versus a bill, versus a battle-spear? Is it really worth whining all that much about?

ninja_ardith · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm **Posts:** 4452

...I tank with a massive weapon.

Also, Edoras the penalty to parry is very slight. It's not the same for the user and the victim. I still parry a ton with the bill spec. Maybe not as much as rapier or epee spec, but I've seen some decent parries. Greatsword would be way better.

Still, you don't use a 2-handed weapon to tank if you're a merc/barb/paladin.

Edoras · **Posted:** Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:59 am

Your daggum elf doesn't ever tank at all.

WickedWitch · **Posted:** Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:00 am

Have we been playing the same game for the past few years, eddy?

It wasn't ever exactly a rare occurence for someone to completely parry/dodge/shield block a bspear/pike merc/barb's round of attacks. Let alone scouts/hellions/paladins who only get 3 hits anyways.

Also, wtf. A greatsword merc can still dodge.

Deathadder · **Posted:** Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:03 am

My claymore spec on llyewlyn was pretty good. So you can spec front row if you want.

WickedWitch · **Posted:** Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:08 am

Quote:

Pilnor rides a spirit steed in from the west.
A thick-maned lion walks in from the west.
A fair-haired male human walks in from the west.
A leonine male human walks in from the west.
An inscrutable male griffon soars in from the west.
A silver-eyed male elf walks in from the west.
Heishi walks in from the west.
You see nothing you can attack there.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 88% Move: 100%]
A golden male griffon throws a throwing spear at you!
A golden male griffon misses you.
A golden male griffon claws at Ghazzhaz the chimera's chest, barely scratching it.
A golden male griffon claws at Ghazzhaz the chimera's chest, barely scratching it.
Ghazzhaz the chimera's head butt hits a golden male griffon.
A golden male griffon dodges Ghazzhaz the chimera's attack.
Ghazzhaz the chimera pounds a golden male griffon's forehead, causing a small gash.
Ghazzhaz the chimera pounds a golden male griffon's head, causing a pulsating wound.
Ghazzhaz the chimera pounds at a golden male griffon's stomach. ENTRAILS fall to the ground!

[Life: 92% Hikari: 88% Move: 100%]
An inscrutable male griffon starts to concentrate.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 88% Move: 100%]
A well-dressed male gnome says to Pilnor 'Good day, mister.'
An astral watcher walks in from the west.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 88% Move: 100%]
1
You start to concentrate.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 88% Move: 100%]
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's chest, barely wounding him.
Pilnor's shield blocks Yeren's attack.
Pilnor's spirit ancestors breaks Yeren's mirror image.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's face, slightly puncturing his cheek.
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's face, slightly puncturing his cheek.
Pilnor parries Yeren's attack.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 88% Move: 100%]
A golden male griffon claws at Ghazzhaz the chimera's left wrist, causing a big gash.
Ghazzhaz the chimera dodges a golden male griffon's attack.
A golden male griffon claws at Ghazzhaz the chimera's right hand, cutting a small wound.
Yeren dodges Pilnor's attack.
Yeren parries Pilnor's attack.
Yeren dodges Pilnor's attack.
Yeren parries Pilnor's attack.
Yeren parries Heishi's attack.
Yeren dodges a silver-eyed male elf's attack.
A leonine male human misses Yeren.
Yeren dodges a fair-haired male human's attack.
A spirit steed misses Yeren.
Yeren quickly jumps out of the way as a thick-maned lion kicks dirt into the air.
Yeren dodges a silver-eyed male elf's attack.
Yeren parries a silver-eyed male elf's attack.
A silver-eyed male elf misses Yeren.
Yeren dodges a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren dodges a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren parries a fair-haired male human's attack.
Pilnor's shield blocks Yeren's attack.
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's chest, barely wounding him.
Pilnor's shield blocks Yeren's attack.
Pilnor's shield blocks Yeren's attack.
Pilnor parries Yeren's attack.
Pilnor's spirit ancestors breaks Brun's mirror image.
Brun cleaves at Pilnor's right hand, cutting a small wound.
Pilnor's spirit ancestors breaks Brun's mirror image.
Brun cleaves Pilnor's chest, cutting a small but painful, wound.
Angry spirits manifest around Pilnor and rain curses upon Brun.
Brun cleaves at Pilnor's chest, causing a deep gash.
Yeren parries Heishi's attack.
Yeren's shield blocks Heishi's attack.
Yeren parries Heishi's attack.
Ghazzhaz the chimera strikes suddenly, pounding at a golden male griffon's chest! Some GUTS fall!
Ghazzhaz the chimera pounds at a golden male griffon's stomach. ENTRAILS fall to the ground!
A golden male griffon dodges Ghazzhaz the chimera's attack.
Ghazzhaz the chimera pounds a golden male griffon's right arm. A golden male griffon falls to his
knees and collapses!
A golden male griffon is DEAD!!
A golden male griffon falls lifeless to the ground.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 88% Move: 100%]
c dispel pil

You utter the words, 'grzzs'.
An inscrutable male griffon goes to sleep.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 85% Move: 100%]You start to concentrate.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 85% Move: 100%]
Yeren quickly jumps out of the way as a fair-haired male human kicks dirt into the air.
An astral watcher walks south.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 85% Move: 100%]
Yeren dodges a spirit steed's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon a leonine male human.
A leonine male human stabs Yeren's stomach, barely wounding him.
Yeren parries a leonine male human's attack.
Yeren dodges a leonine male human's attack.
Yeren dodges Pilnor's attack.
Pilnor misses Yeren.
Yeren's shield blocks Pilnor's attack.
Yeren dodges Pilnor's attack.
A silver-eyed male elf misses Yeren.
A silver-eyed male elf misses Yeren.
Yeren parries a silver-eyed male elf's attack.
Yeren's shield blocks a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren dodges a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren parries a fair-haired male human's attack.
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's chest, causing a deep gash.
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's chest, causing a deep gash.
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces Pilnor's forehead, causing a small gash.
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's chest, causing a deep gash.
Pilnor dodges Yeren's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Pilnor and rain curses upon Brun.
Brun cleaves at Pilnor's chest, causing a deep gash.
Pilnor dodges Brun's attack.
Pilnor parries Brun's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon Heishi.
Heishi's divine wrath slightly singes Yeren's head.
Yeren parries Heishi's attack.
Yeren parries Heishi's attack.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 85% Move: 100%]
Yeren quaffs a ruby vial of heal.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 85% Move: 100%]
You utter the words, 'eugszr waouq'.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 82% Move: 100%]
c dispel pil
You start to concentrate.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 82% Move: 100%]
Yeren dodges a spirit steed's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon a leonine male human.
A leonine male human stabs Yeren's stomach, barely wounding him.
Yeren dodges a leonine male human's attack.
Pilnor misses Yeren.
Yeren dodges Pilnor's attack.
Yeren dodges Pilnor's attack.
Yeren parries Pilnor's attack.
A silver-eyed male elf misses Yeren.
Yeren dodges a silver-eyed male elf's attack.
Yeren parries a fair-haired male human's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon a fair-haired male human.
A fair-haired male human slices at Yeren's left toe, scratching it slightly.
Pilnor's shield blocks Yeren's attack.
Pilnor dodges Yeren's attack.
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces Pilnor's forehead, causing a small gash.
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces Pilnor's forehead, causing a small gash.
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces Pilnor's forehead, causing a small gash.
Pilnor's spirit ancestors breaks Brun's mirror image.
Brun cleaves at Pilnor's stomach, barely scratching him.
Brun misses Pilnor.
Pilnor dodges Brun's attack.
Pilnor's spirit ancestors breaks Brun's mirror image.
Brun cleaves at Pilnor's left hand, cutting a small wound.
Yeren dodges Heishi's attack.
Yeren's shield blocks Heishi's attack.
Pilnor quickly jumps out of the way as Losquez the half-wolf kicks dirt into the air.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 82% Move: 100%]
A fair-haired male human's bash misses and he falls flat on his face.

[Life: 92% Hikari: 82% Move: 100%]
You are hungry.
Your earth sense fades.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 78% Move: 100%]
A leonine male human starts to concentrate.
Pilnor quaffs a gray vial.
Yeren's bash is deflected by Pilnor's invincible aura!
Heishi's bash misses and he falls flat on his face.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 78% Move: 100%]
You utter the words, 'eugszr waouq'.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 75% Move: 100%]
A leonine male human utters the words, 'gszabra ay yauhp'.
A bright spear of light appears in a leonine male human's hand!
A leonine male human's faithful spear sails wide, but Yeren still cringes in pain.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 75% Move: 100%]
c dispel pil
You start to concentrate.
Yeren's shield blocks a spirit steed's attack.
Yeren dodges a leonine male human's attack.
Yeren parries a leonine male human's attack.
Spirits manifest around Yeren, but Pilnor charges through them.
Pilnor's deadly wrath barely hits Yeren's head.
Yeren parries Pilnor's attack.
Yeren parries Pilnor's attack.
Yeren dodges Pilnor's attack.
A silver-eyed male elf misses Yeren.
A silver-eyed male elf misses Yeren.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon a fair-haired male human.
A fair-haired male human slices at Yeren's right toe, scratching it slightly.
Yeren's shield blocks a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren dodges a fair-haired male human's attack.
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's chest, barely wounding him.
Pilnor dodges Yeren's attack.
Spirits manifest around Pilnor, but Yeren charges through them.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's chest, barely wounding him.
Pilnor's shield blocks Yeren's attack.
Pilnor's shield blocks Yeren's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Pilnor and rain curses upon Brun.
Brun cleaves Pilnor's chest, cutting a small but painful, wound.
Pilnor parries Brun's attack.
Pilnor dodges Brun's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon Heishi.
Heishi's divine wrath barely hits Yeren's head.
Yeren dodges Heishi's attack.
Yeren dodges Heishi's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Pilnor and rain curses upon Losquez the half-wolf.
Losquez the half-wolf claws at Pilnor's stomach, barely scratching him.
Pilnor dodges Losquez the half-wolf's attack.
Losquez the half-wolf misses Pilnor.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 75% Move: 100%]
Pilnor gets a fleshy green spike from the robes of Infinite Wisdom.
Pilnor gets a fleshy green spike from the robes of Infinite Wisdom.
Pilnor gets a fleshy green spike from the robes of Infinite Wisdom.
Pilnor gets a fleshy green spike from the robes of Infinite Wisdom.
Pilnor gets a fleshy green spike from the robes of Infinite Wisdom.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 75% Move: 100%]
You utter the words, 'eugszr waouq'.
Yeren parries a spirit steed's bare fist!
Yeren pierces at a spirit steed's right finger, cutting him slightly.
A leonine male human misses Yeren.
Yeren parries a leonine male human's attack.
Pilnor misses Yeren.
Yeren's shield blocks Pilnor's attack.
Yeren's shield blocks Pilnor's attack.
Yeren dodges Pilnor's attack.
Yeren parries a silver-eyed male elf's attack.
Yeren parries a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren's shield blocks a fair-haired male human's attack.
Pilnor dodges Yeren's attack.
Pilnor parries Yeren's attack.
Pilnor dodges Yeren's attack.
Pilnor parries Yeren's attack.
Pilnor parries Yeren's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Pilnor and rain curses upon Brun.
Brun cleaves at Pilnor's left wrist, causing a big gash.
Pilnor's shield blocks Brun's attack.
Pilnor's shield blocks Brun's attack.
Yeren parries Heishi's attack.
Yeren parries Heishi's attack.
Yeren dodges Heishi's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Pilnor and rain curses upon Losquez the half-wolf.
Losquez the half-wolf claws at Pilnor's left wrist, causing a big gash.
Angry spirits manifest around Pilnor and rain curses upon Losquez the half-wolf.
Losquez the half-wolf claws at Pilnor's right hand, cutting a small wound.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 71% Move: 100%]
Pilnor gets a phial containing a slimy potion from the robes of Infinite Wisdom.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 71% Move: 100%]
c dispel pil
You start to concentrate.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 71% Move: 100%]
Yeren quaffs a ruby vial of heal.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 71% Move: 100%]
A spirit steed misses Yeren.
Yeren dodges a leonine male human's attack.
Yeren parries a leonine male human's attack.
Spirits manifest around Yeren, but Pilnor charges through them.
Pilnor's deadly wrath slightly hits Yeren's chest.
Spirits manifest around Yeren, but Pilnor charges through them.
Pilnor's deadly wrath barely hits Yeren's head.
Yeren parries Pilnor's attack.
Yeren parries Pilnor's attack.
Yeren quickly jumps out of the way as a thick-maned lion kicks dirt into the air.
A silver-eyed male elf misses Yeren.
Yeren dodges a silver-eyed male elf's attack.
Yeren dodges a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren parries a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren dodges a fair-haired male human's attack.
Pilnor dodges Yeren's attack.
Pilnor parries Yeren's attack.
Pilnor parries Yeren's attack.
Pilnor's shield blocks Yeren's attack.
Pilnor dodges Yeren's attack.
Pilnor dodges Brun's attack.
Pilnor parries Brun's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon Heishi.
Heishi causes Yeren some slight wounds as his divine wrath singes his chest.
Heishi misses Yeren.
Heishi misses Yeren.
Losquez the half-wolf misses Pilnor.
Angry spirits manifest around Pilnor and rain curses upon Losquez the half-wolf.
Losquez the half-wolf claws Pilnor's chest, cutting a small but painful, wound.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 71% Move: 100%]
You utter the words, 'eugszr waouq'.
The blessing on Pilnor's armor vanishes.
Pilnor loses the blessing of the gods.
Pilnor can no longer detect hidden.
Pilnor can no longer detect invisible.
Pilnor no longer looks so mighty.
Pilnor is no longer moving so quickly.
Pilnor loses the prayer of the gods.
Pilnor's ward of protection vanishes.
Pilnor's spirit companions fade away.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 68% Move: 100%]
A leonine male human starts to concentrate.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 68% Move: 100%]
A spirit steed misses Yeren.
Yeren parries a leonine male human's attack.
Yeren parries Pilnor's attack.
Yeren dodges Pilnor's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon Pilnor.
Pilnor's deadly wrath barely hits Yeren's chest.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon Pilnor.
Pilnor's deadly wrath lightly hits Yeren's chest.
Yeren's shield blocks a silver-eyed male elf's attack.
Yeren dodges a silver-eyed male elf's attack.
Yeren parries a silver-eyed male elf's attack.
A fair-haired male human misses Yeren.
Yeren parries a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren dodges a fair-haired male human's attack.
Pilnor's shield blocks Yeren's attack.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's chest, causing a deep gash.
Pilnor parries Yeren's attack.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's chest, causing a deep gash.
Pilnor parries Yeren's attack.
Pilnor's shield blocks Brun's attack.
Brun cleaves at Pilnor's chest, causing a deep gash.
Yeren's shield blocks Heishi's attack.
Yeren's shield blocks Heishi's attack.
Yeren dodges Heishi's attack.
Pilnor dodges Losquez the half-wolf's attack.
Pilnor's shield blocks Losquez the half-wolf's attack.
Pilnor's shield blocks Losquez the half-wolf's attack.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 68% Move: 100%]
A leonine male human utters the words, 'gszabra ay yauhp'.
A bright spear of light appears in a leonine male human's hand!
A leonine male human brings forth a blinding spear of light from his hand!
You yell 'Guards! A leonine male human is trying to murder me!'
A leonine male human's spear of faith breaks your mirror image.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 68% Move: 100%]
A leonine male human starts to concentrate.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 68% Move: 100%]
Pilnor gets a tall topaz cruet of spirit aura from the robes of Infinite Wisdom.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 68% Move: 100%]
Pilnor quaffs a tall topaz cruet of spirit aura.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 68% Move: 100%]
o gha bash pil
Ghazzhaz the chimera's bash is deflected by Pilnor's invincible aura!
Ok.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 68% Move: 100%]
A leonine male human utters the words, 'gszabra ay yauhp'.
A bright spear of light appears in a leonine male human's hand!
A leonine male human brings forth a blinding spear of light from his hand!
A leonine male human's spear of faith breaks your mirror image.
Your images fade away.

[Life: 94% Hikari: 68% Move: 100%]
A leonine male human starts to concentrate.
A spirit steed misses Yeren.
Yeren dodges a leonine male human's attack.
Yeren dodges Pilnor's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon Pilnor.
Pilnor's deadly wrath lightly hits Yeren's chest.
Yeren parries Pilnor's attack.

Yeren dodges Pilnor's attack.
A silver-eyed male elf misses Yeren.
Yeren dodges a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren dodges a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren dodges a fair-haired male human's attack.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's face, slightly puncturing his cheek.
Pilnor parries Yeren's attack.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's head, causing a small scratch.
Yeren pierces at Pilnor's chest, causing a gaping wound!
Pilnor parries Yeren's attack.
Brun cleaves Pilnor's stomach, cutting a deep gash.
Pilnor's shield blocks Brun's attack.
Pilnor's shield blocks Brun's attack.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon Heishi.
Heishi's divine wrath barely hits Yeren's head.
Heishi misses Yeren.
Angry spirits manifest around Yeren and rain curses upon Heishi.
Heishi's divine wrath lightly hits Yeren's head.
Losquez the half-wolf gets a wild look in his eyes.
Losquez the half-wolf claws at Pilnor's left leg, causing a sore wound.
Losquez the half-wolf claws Pilnor's chest, causing a gaping wound!
Losquez the half-wolf claws Pilnor's stomach, tearing open a painful, bleeding wound!
Pilnor dodges Losquez the half-wolf's attack.
Ghazzhaz the chimera pounds Heishi's chest, barely wounding him.
Heishi parries Ghazzhaz the chimera's bare fist!
Heishi's divine wrath barely hits Ghazzhaz the chimera's right arm.
Heishi's shield blocks Ghazzhaz the chimera's attack.
Ghazzhaz the chimera pounds Heishi's left wrist, causing a big gash.

stuff like this is why we needed massive weapons

that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a downside to using them

ninja_ardith · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm **Posts:** 4452

That's why spellcasters need a buff too.

When is the enchant change coming?

jhorleb · **Posted:** Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:17 am

That log shows spirit aura breaking mirror images. It doesn't come up often, so maybe doesn't really matter, but I don't think it should do that.

Shattered Kingdoms

Got a Question?

Who is online