Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate

Travorn · **Joined:** Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:29 am **Posts:** 753

Sorry. Read it as you thinking that the nerf to the wraiths was done today, as well.

Galactus · **Joined:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:21 pm **Posts:** 906

Baldric, when people like Edoras goes on rants like this is why I DON'T assume the l33t pkers are always correct over my perceptions.

Now that I know that Edoras only wishes to go back to his OLD form of combat (o all bash), and refuses to look for new tactics, I'll get some popcorn now.

One note, the only thing I could think that should be buffed is the timer (or mana usage or both since I don't play necros), since they can be equipped more like a regular party (perception based on what D said about them having class skills).

Edoras · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:14 pm

Galactus wrote:

I don't play necros

Galactus · **Joined:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:21 pm **Posts:** 906

Edoras wrote:

Galactus wrote:

I don't play necros

Edoras, you don't need to know how an atomic bomb works to know about how destructive they are. This is the elitism I really dislike. Everyone has to be a nuclear engineer to have an opinion you and several others care about.

Opey · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:36 pm

Edoras wrote:

ericopey wrote:

Sorry, no. 2 rounding a GM warrior is not balanced.

2 rounding a GM warrior who chose to play a character with zero buffs seems pretty balanced to me, when if he had survived 3-4 rounds he would have won the fight without any casualties. My hammer GNOME merc (Emphasis on the gnome) took the full brunt of an entire undead army before this nerf and held it with zero backup, and he was actually missing sanctuary in that fight.

So then, let's talk about balanced then as far as what raw damage is necessary to be successful, in that case: Let's take your griffon MR barbarian for example. On account of IA bash and MR it is impossible to keep him from spam eating mistletoe, and since you can eat 2 a round, I'm thinking that's what, 30% HP healing every round? It's actually more than that, judging from this log of a griffon MR barbarian:
...
But whatever.

In other words, assuming that my necro got the perfect engagement and I had enough dps to 2-round you, you would take 50% damage every round and heal 30%, meaning that you would actually survive 4 rounds at least (down to 50%, to 30%, to 10%, and then dead): And that's ignoring the fact that you're going to drop one undead instantly on account of aura of negation, and at no point in time are you ever forced to stay in the fight. You can simply flee or recall whenever you want.

Now, however, let's be more accurate: A fully equipped army nowadays with the loss of fury on animates will probably do about 30% damage to Hoch, and that's if I happen to actually get them to o all hit you. And unless you go afk, or run out of mistletoe and forget to type the "flee" command or to set your wimpy to 15, my undead will never, ever kill you, and there's absolutely nothing else I can do about it.

Good balance argument. Real good. Why did we nerf necros and not "eat mistletoe" again?

Mistletoe heals Hoch for 13%. Ya, I can eat two a round but I often HAVE to eat two per round in order to not die. Because I have to spam it, there is no room left for bashing. Also, don't talk about nerfing "eat mistletoe". I went through 62 mistletoe today fighting you and Tyto (twice). Its not easy to convince a scout to get you 62 mistletoe. To be honest, I'd rather have heal vials and buffs. Maybe I'm not running my character as "bad [REDACTED]" as your gnome was, but it seems to me that forcing your opponent to do nothing but quaff heal or "eat mistletoe" is effectively winning the fight.

Please stop whining about how your undead army can never kill my naked griffon. My griffon can't really kill your necromancer, either. I'm cool with that. I don't need to win to have fun; this isn't Jayhawk basketball.

I would like to say that I sympathize you, though. It is hard to not feel attacked when your character takes a nerf. If I were you, though, I'd consider toying around with the new changes as much as you can instead of whining on the forums. Good luck, Eddy.

Edoras · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:02 pm

Opey wrote:

Please stop whining about how your undead army can never kill my naked griffon. My griffon can't really kill your necromancer, either. I'm cool with that. I don't need to win to have fun; this isn't Jayhawk basketball.

Actually, your griffon has a much better shot at killing my necromancer than vice versa, for the reasons I just stated. My undead can't spam eat mistletoe, as it were. Eventually you are going to kill my lousy HP undead and I'm going to lose the fight. Stick anyone with access to holy word behind you and my necromancer is nothing more than a very very frail maledictor, which go figure, also doesn't matter against your griffon MR hammarb.

Now, considering the fact that my undead army probably can't even kill your griffon, whose -only weakness- is physical damage, consider how much more useless animates are going to be against a normal merc or barb with SA and sanc. Animates will literally kill -themselves- on someone with spirit aura, their HP is so bad.

I've been toying around with the changes: And I'm still telling you, necros are bad. Real bad. I just tried to kill Rhakeesh for about 15 minutes and all he had to do was run away. He just sat there, and ran away from my undead, for about 15 minutes. I walked in the room, o all hit him, and he ran away. At any point he could have chosen to BoG my undead instead of being a toolbag and just running away, but he didn't. I sat there and thought "Hm. Is there anything I can do to him instead of run into the room and o all hit him?" and the answer was "No, because you're still a necro." It was pretty dumb.

So yes, chiming back in: Now that animates can't do anything besides o all hit, they are all but totally useless aside from added damage in PvE. As a result, necros are just sorcerers with undead controls, more vulnerabilities and fear, and that's a terrible trade.

So how about we nerf "eat mistletoe", which can heal an MR barbarian over 25% a round?

Styles · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:06 pm

Edoras wrote:

Actually, your griffon has a much better shot at killing my necromancer than vice versa, for the reasons I just stated. My undead can't spam eat mistletoe, as it were.

LOL

Quote:

Eventually you are going to kill my lousy HP undead and I'm going to lose the fight. Stick anyone with access to holy word behind you and my necromancer is nothing more than a very very frail maledictor, which go figure, also doesn't matter against your griffon MR hammarb.

Hammer barbarians have access to holy word? Oh, wait. You're talking about a 2 vs. 1 situation again.

Never mind.

Opey · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:11 pm

How come your necro can't zap wands at people. In the case of Rhakeesh, a hellfire wand goes a long way.

Terrus · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:22 pm

I would love to see casted finger of death in pvp more often. Especially with the new enchant changes I bet you will see a lot more people being one shot from it, especially since most people seem to be stacking willpower over fort.

Edoras · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:36 pm

Why would anyone stack willpower over fort when petrification is a one shot impairment spell and there are 14 art sorcs running around for enchanting?

The reason that you don't see casted finger of death is because no one is going to sit still long enough for a necro to cast it at them.

Opey wrote:

How come your necro can't zap wands at people. In the case of Rhakeesh, a hellfire wand goes a long way.

In the case of Rhakeesh, IA bash completely prevents me from keeping him in the room. I even summoned a blood wight and tripped him and he survived fine, even escaped with a flight script.

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Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate

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