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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Dulrik wrote:
Edoras wrote:
To be completely honest, you can pretty much throw all maledictions out the window here when it comes to PvP, because if you wanted to roll a class that casts maledictions in PvP, you should have rolled a class that doesn't have to immediately recall upon reaching the second row ie: shaman or hellion.

This is really the only thing that interests me right now.

Give up on raising the damage of animates back up, because that's just not going to happen. But I DO want necromancers to be viable as a malediction class. Previous to these changes, you could never, ever have raised the hit points of animates because they were already murderous. Now... well, it's at least conceivable that we could do that. But I will need to see weeks, perhaps months, of testing across multiple people before I would think about it. So why don't you come back to this in 2013?

The real reason necros aren't a malediction class is that they have too many other great options at their disposal to waste time with maledictions. Do you want to cast plague on a guy or dispel him? Do you want to cast poison on a guy or cast fear to wreck his formation? Why cast curse when you can brandish a curse staff and nail the entire enemy team? Yeah, sure, in specific instances you might want to actually sit there and cast a malediction but, generally speaking, you are going to have better options as a necromancer: brandish, zap, recite, other spells, order all, etc.

Necromancers weren't a malediction class before this change, and they are not any closer to being one after the change, but it has nothing to do with animate dead and everything to do with the myriad other tactics available to them. Shamans and hellions cannot recite double finger of death scrolls or cast fear. They cannot zap. They cannot order a massive army to do stuff. This is why they use maledictions and necromancers don't, not because the necromancer is "too squishy" to maledict. If you consider that just to get at a necromancer you frequently have to plow through his undead and various pets first, he definitely has plenty of time to throw some maledictions out. They just don't tend to because the opportunity cost is too high. You would have to be a very dedicated RP-oriented necromancer to be a heavy-duty maledictor. For instance, maybe you just love spreading disease. Maybe that's your thing. That's about the only way you're going to get a necromancer to spend his time throwing plagues around in PvP.

If you want to see necromancers use maledictions, you either need to buff maledictions (which is not needed), or debuff all the other stuff a necromancer can do (also not needed... yet) to make the maledictions relatively better.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Anybody that casts plague is a moron.

The cast time on that spell needs lowered.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:50 pm
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SK Character: Karsh
Styles wrote:
Dulrik wrote:
Edoras wrote:
To be completely honest, you can pretty much throw all maledictions out the window here when it comes to PvP, because if you wanted to roll a class that casts maledictions in PvP, you should have rolled a class that doesn't have to immediately recall upon reaching the second row ie: shaman or hellion.

This is really the only thing that interests me right now.

Give up on raising the damage of animates back up, because that's just not going to happen. But I DO want necromancers to be viable as a malediction class. Previous to these changes, you could never, ever have raised the hit points of animates because they were already murderous. Now... well, it's at least conceivable that we could do that. But I will need to see weeks, perhaps months, of testing across multiple people before I would think about it. So why don't you come back to this in 2013?

The real reason necros aren't a malediction class is that they have too many other great options at their disposal to waste time with maledictions. Do you want to cast plague on a guy or dispel him? Do you want to cast poison on a guy or cast fear to wreck his formation? Why cast curse when you can brandish a curse staff and nail the entire enemy team? Yeah, sure, in specific instances you might want to actually sit there and cast a malediction but, generally speaking, you are going to have better options as a necromancer: brandish, zap, recite, other spells, order all, etc.

Necromancers weren't a malediction class before this change, and they are not any closer to being one after the change, but it has nothing to do with animate dead and everything to do with the myriad other tactics available to them. Shamans and hellions cannot recite double finger of death scrolls or cast fear. They cannot zap. They cannot order a massive army to do stuff. This is why they use maledictions and necromancers don't, not because the necromancer is "too squishy" to maledict. If you consider that just to get at a necromancer you frequently have to plow through his undead and various pets first, he definitely has plenty of time to throw some maledictions out. They just don't tend to because the opportunity cost is too high. You would have to be a very dedicated RP-oriented necromancer to be a heavy-duty maledictor. For instance, maybe you just love spreading disease. Maybe that's your thing. That's about the only way you're going to get a necromancer to spend his time throwing plagues around in PvP.

If you want to see necromancers use maledictions, you either need to buff maledictions (which is not needed), or debuff all the other stuff a necromancer can do (also not needed... yet) to make the maledictions relatively better.


Pretty much this.

Necros have too many better options in PvP/PvE than maledicting to make them maledictors. Shaman, for example, do not. If they're built for front row, they have the option of standing there taking a beating, or weakening/slowing/cursing the ones beating on them so they can take more of a beating. If they're built for back row, they have the option of weakening/slowing/cursing the ones beating on the meat shield, and occasionally tossing a heal on the same. Oh. And calling lightning if they're not main healers, and they had time/spare mana to set up the weather properly.

Even hellions don't have a lot of better options than using maledictions, unless they opt for straight hellfire spam (situationally a better option than maledicting also).

I've always seen necro access to maledictions as a "well, we need to pad their spell list a bit, so lets just throw these relatively thematic spells in there even though we know they won't really use them" thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:47 pm 
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I cannot believe this thread is still happening. Edoras, what have you accomplished with anything you've said in this thread? Time to let it go. I know it's hard for you, but LET IT GO. Bring it up again in a month or two with some REAL solutions and suggestions.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:07 pm 
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Location: 'Merica
SK Character: Adalwulf, Whinston, Eberhardt
My Hellions typically don''t use Hellfire all that much. The damage from one Hellfire casting, even at GM is less than I could achieve with two attacks from a Halberd in that same round. For a Hellion the most solid choice is probably "Weaken," since that will drop the other guy's strength by around ten points, and maybe follow up with "Poison". The cast time on "Plague" is a bit high, but in a longer fight I might consider it, or "Curse" if I think they plan to WoR.

For Necromancers I would recommend "Fear" first. Might as well wreck the other side's formation, then "Weaken" any melee fighter's in the group that didn't flee, and if you're still alive, and you look like you might win, start a FoD, and hope that your party isn't trashed before you cast.

Don

<Edit> Here is a log showing Hellfire damage. A perfect hit will do around 17%, but this is assuming that (1) You hit, and (2) You aren't dead yet.

> c 'hellfire' self
You start to concentrate.

[HP:100%] [ME: 99%] [PE:100%]
>
You utter the words, 'pzrryucandus'.
You dodge aside as your own hellfire washes over you.

[HP: 91%] [ME: 93%] [PE:100%]
> c 'hellfire' self
You start to concentrate.

[HP: 91%] [ME: 93%] [PE:100%]
>
You utter the words, 'pzrryucandus'.
You dodge aside as your own hellfire washes over you.

[HP: 82%] [ME: 88%] [PE:100%]
> c 'hellfire' self
You start to concentrate.

[HP: 82%] [ME: 88%] [PE:100%]
>
You utter the words, 'pzrryucandus'.
You feel your flesh roast as your own spell burns you with hellfire!

[HP: 65%] [ME: 83%] [PE:100%]


Last edited by Whinston on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:25 pm 
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ladyjennbo wrote:
I cannot believe this thread is still happening. Edoras, what have you accomplished with anything you've said in this thread? Time to let it go. I know it's hard for you, but LET IT GO. Bring it up again in a month or two with some REAL solutions and suggestions.


If you people keep taking the bait, he aint going to stop.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:33 pm 
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SK Character: Adalwulf, Whinston, Eberhardt
Very true, Chem; but then again, you're still being shunned for wanting to be a Minotaur priest. :P

On another note, I think I might be done with this thread myself. I was against the nerf from the start; I think it probably just killed that class, but what's done is done.



Don


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:12 am 
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Whinston wrote:
My Hellions typically don''t use Hellfire all that much. The damage from one Hellfire casting, even at GM is less than I could achieve with two attacks from a Halberd in that same round. For a Hellion the most solid choice is probably "Weaken," since that will drop the other guy's strength by around ten points, and maybe follow up with "Poison". The cast time on "Plague" is a bit high, but in a longer fight I might consider it, or "Curse" if I think they plan to WoR.

For Necromancers I would recommend "Fear" first. Might as well wreck the other side's formation, then "Weaken" any melee fighter's in the group that didn't flee, and if you're still alive, and you look like you might win, start a FoD, and hope that your party isn't trashed before you cast.

Don

<Edit> Here is a log showing Hellfire damage. A perfect hit will do around 17%, but this is assuming that (1) You hit, and (2) You aren't dead yet.

> c 'hellfire' self
You start to concentrate.

[HP:100%] [ME: 99%] [PE:100%]
>
You utter the words, 'pzrryucandus'.
You dodge aside as your own hellfire washes over you.

[HP: 91%] [ME: 93%] [PE:100%]
> c 'hellfire' self
You start to concentrate.

[HP: 91%] [ME: 93%] [PE:100%]
>
You utter the words, 'pzrryucandus'.
You dodge aside as your own hellfire washes over you.

[HP: 82%] [ME: 88%] [PE:100%]
> c 'hellfire' self
You start to concentrate.

[HP: 82%] [ME: 88%] [PE:100%]
>
You utter the words, 'pzrryucandus'.
You feel your flesh roast as your own spell burns you with hellfire!

[HP: 65%] [ME: 83%] [PE:100%]


You're a dark aura'd character, it'd be more for lighties.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:57 am 
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That and it can be cast between rounds, so time it right, and get it all?


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:21 am
Posts: 688
SK Character: Delear - Maridosen
If Dulrik wants the necromancer to become just another class, then too bad.
It's actually a great loss to SK and if that's the case, then some serious compensations in terms of convenience should be made, in order to make this difficult class, into something tempting, fun and worthy to play.

e.g.
-Remove the undead timer, it is now pointless.
-Give the undead some unique abilities to support the 'self-sufficient & lonely RP', like 'create spring', 'Butcher'
-Make the ordering of undead easier by allowing to rename or assigning numbers to the undead that the necro is ABLE to see.


I've read quite a lot of posts about this and it seems that most of the people who keep posting, belong to one of the following categories:

1. They have tried to play a successful necro and didn't do that well
2. They don't like the RP and will never give the class a try
3. They don't do well against them
4. They just don't care

I'll simply say this:

The arrival of a -worthy- necromancer in a city was much like a GRP.


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