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 Post subject: Re: Warlock spell damage: Help is appreciated.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:28 am 
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Minette wrote:
3. when elemental disappears can you make it drop everything instead of losing everything it carries


It seems like a bug that it doesn't do it this way already, thus I agree it should.

As for everything else in this thread, I think warlocks are fine. Elementals are already tremendously powerful. They are immune to so many things and tank better than any other NPC. They provide different advantages than the NPCs available to sorcerers or necros and must be used accordingly to be maximally effective. This can be said about warlocks in general; they have different strengths and weaknesses than other casters, so you can't try to make apples to apples comparisons. The enchantment changes were a big boost to warlocks, too, because now people are running around with much lower magical protection and reflex than they were before.


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 Post subject: Re: Warlock spell damage: Help is appreciated.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:47 am 
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Styles wrote:
people are running around with much lower magical protection and reflex than they were before.


No one enchanted for reflex before the enchant changes and magma spray ignores magical protection. Warlocks excel at keep defense and if the player base didn't loathe, detest and generally ignore CRS - threads like this wouldn't exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Warlock spell damage: Help is appreciated.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:28 am 
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FinneyOwnzU wrote:
Styles wrote:
people are running around with much lower magical protection and reflex than they were before.


No one enchanted for reflex before the enchant changes and magma spray ignores magical protection. Warlocks excel at keep defense and if the player base didn't loathe, detest and generally ignore CRS - posts like this wouldn't exist.


My guess is that people ended up with more reflex just by chance though, but it could be about the same. Either way it used to be the case that you would see people who were outright immune to all other warlock spells besides magma by way of very high MP because everyone and his brother stacked a ton of it on his armor, but you don't ever see this anymore. Now melee characters especially have much lower MP and are more susceptible to damage spells in general. There is no doubt that the average damage output in PvP from all non-magma spells has risen since the enchantment change went in. It was a big boost to warlocks. Fireballs and chain lightnings are nothing to scoff at.

The original poster of this thread was talking about warlocks who are not in factions, but if you want to bring up CRS you need to also bring up how effective warlocks can be as tribunal defender, too, with their ranged spell capacity. This is especially the case for evil ones who don't mind nuking their own guard NPCs. Some group that moves in on three guard NPCs is going to be stuck eating mega ranged damage unless they have a mercenary to retreat into you. There are also certain cabal skills/spells that have more synergy with the warlock spell set than with any other caster spell set.

The point is, warlocks have their strengths and weaknesses. They are clearly unmatched by other casters at range, and wands and staves give players who aren't too lazy to learn about and use them access to solutions to most of their perceived shortcomings. They have a lot of defensive capabilities between their elemental, their armor options, and their spell set that other casters do not have, which serves to balance out spell damage issues. If you build your warlock well and join appropriate factions, you will be successful. If you build a second-rate warlock, have crap for equipment, and don't put in the necessary preparation effort, you will fail, and the warlock class is particularly unforgiving in this regard.


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 Post subject: Re: Warlock spell damage: Help is appreciated.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:33 am 
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Styles wrote:
If you build your warlock well and join appropriate factions, you will be successful. If you build a second-rate warlock, have crap for equipment, and don't put in the necessary preparation effort, you will fail, and the warlock class is particularly unforgiving in this regard.


This is the only part I disagree with. You will not succeed against other veteran players no matter what build you use, but that does not mean the class is broken either. About the only thing I would give warlocks is identify - replacing the ever useful detect poison.


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 Post subject: Re: Warlock spell damage: Help is appreciated.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:40 am 
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FinneyOwnzU wrote:
This is the only part I disagree with. You will not succeed against other veteran players no matter what build you use, but that does not mean the class is broken either. About the only thing I would give warlocks is identify - replacing the ever useful detect poison.

You can say this about any class. Two veterans competing against each other with any classes always results in a theoretical stalemate, provided neither side makes any strategic or tactical errors.


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 Post subject: Re: Warlock spell damage: Help is appreciated.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:42 am 
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Styles wrote:
FinneyOwnzU wrote:
This is the only part I disagree with. You will not succeed against other veteran players no matter what build you use, but that does not mean the class is broken either. About the only thing I would give warlocks is identify - replacing the ever useful detect poison.

You can say this about any class. Two veterans competing against each other with any classes always results in a theoretical stalemate, provided neither side makes any strategic or tactical errors.


No, you can't say this about any class.


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 Post subject: Re: Warlock spell damage: Help is appreciated.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:52 am 
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It doesn't matter how great a tank the elemental is if it takes a literal 14+ rounds to kill anything. That's the problem. People with enchanted gear not only mitigate warlock damage, they outright nullify it. You both saw the log of a Sprite priest taking 22 magmas to kill. They both drained their MP and still almost failed to kill her. Yes, I'm fully aware there are other things that could've been done like killing the pet and bashing her etc. Sorcs have the option to instantly take out a pet as does necros through either petrification or sheer melee damage. Warlocks don't have this.

The problem is, you don't really need to enchant for MP. Sanc / Protection gives you all the protection you need from a warlock by literally, cutting their spell damage in more than half. Shield / RE is just icing on the cake and makes it so there is no chance of winning, period without having a wand or something to dispel them with. Not even factoring in heal vials. I'm not saying warlocks can't / don't employ tactics, what I'm saying is those tactics are limited against opponents who are moderately prepared / buffed. There is nothing a prepared warlock can do. Even if you use sleep staves so they can't attack you while you kill their pet / guards, you still have to keep them bashed for too many rounds of combat to actually kill them because of the buffs cutting the damage by too much. That's the point I 'm trying to make. It doesn't take much preparation to nullify a warlock simply because it's only option is spell damage where as sorcs / necros have more than that option.

I'm not saying give elementals more damage. That's not the point. Warlocks need a way to deal with buffed opponents, either via dispel or some way to reduce MP so that they can actually do damage to a target. They aren't fine at the moment just because they can throw spells from behind a wall. Scouts / mercs can do the same thing with bows / crossbows. Having one instance they excel in doesn't make them fine or balanced, especially when that one instance is, like you said, largely ignored by the player base. There aren't many warlocks in the game. There really never has been. I think that fact alone says something about the class and what it can provide.


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 Post subject: Re: Warlock spell damage: Help is appreciated.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:45 pm 
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Kin wrote:
Yes, I'm fully aware there are other things that could've been done like killing the pet and bashing her etc.


This.


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 Post subject: Re: Warlock spell damage: Help is appreciated.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Minette wrote:
i recently tried a warlock here is my feedback:

1. can we get 2 tick advance warning instead of 1 tick advance because some group battles actually last 2-3 ticks so elemental can go in between it all
2. can we get 2 warnings instead of 1, first warning at -5 ticks left
3. when elemental disappears can you make it drop everything instead of losing everything it carries
4. sorcerer's color spray does less damage than cone of cold but because it blinds, it has such huge utility, most team fights sorcs just spam color spray and do awesome, can we give cone of cold something like -str and -int temporary debuff due to freezing cold?
5. sorc and necro charms get to wield weapons and deal massive damage, elementals are okay can get one any time, don't wights last 2 hours now? can we adjust elemental to stay around for 45+ minutes

gg thx

This. I like the idea of a more lengthy elemental fade warning for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Warlock spell damage: Help is appreciated.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:04 pm 
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Has the dispellability of elementals been discussed yet? Seems to me they're something of a joke to someone who can dispel from ethereal and has a throwaway charm to follow-up.


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