Shattered Kingdoms

Ugh. Please no more PE draining. A kip and stance change, as it stands (PUN INTENDED), is pretty hard on PE.

Only thinking of alternatives instead of axing only because we know how much D likes to remove features that were added.

I think Finney has some good points. I don't like how it overpowers bash currently, however the potential of stances sounds really promising. Actually I think all fighting classes should have distinct fighting stances. Scouts should get a bow shooting stance, barbs a crazy-fighting stance, mercs another stance hmm maybe something that gives them less lag on commands? The possibilities at making classes more distinct are endless. Hell, a certain cabal is even missing a skill currently, how about giving them a stance?

I think the fix should be in fixing bash now, and not stances Stances look promising and fresh.

Not to sound like a jerk, but this just seems to highlight the staffs lack of understanding of pvp mechanics.

Pretty sure no one is actually objecting to the new stance for swashes. In fact, I'm also pretty sure most people are on-board with that and think it's a good idea and something they really needed.

The problem is this change to prone and being set to stance neutral doesn't just balance the new stance, it negates it. The change might as well not have happened, in practical terms.

I'm going to address this just once, because I'm getting tired of this leading question which I believe everyone should already understand.

While SK is constantly growing and evolving, it is not a professionally produced game. I know, because I used to be a professional game developer. SK does not have a QA department nor a dedicated beta testing service. Professional production requires resources that SK does not have. At SK, the beta testers are YOU. If you don't like that, you should find a game that has the resources to provide that level of service (and be prepared to pay a monthly fee for it).

That doesn't mean new code isn't tested, but it is primarily functional testing -- dedicated to finding and fixing crashes and logical errors -- AKA making sure that the feature is functioning according to design expectations. I do have at least one active and experienced PvP player (not a staff member) come in to provide feedback on any gameplay feature that is likely to have balance concerns, and that was true here as well.

At the time, no concerns about bash were raised, as focus was being put more on the new skill. But I asked that person their opinion about this thread (with the benefit of hindsight) and their response was (paraphrased):


Since this person isn't on script with the rest of the herd, I'm sure the next post following mine will call them an idiot and question their PvP credentials. Whether you agree with this person's opinion is NOT the point of this post.

What I'm saying here is that while I do make an effort to make sure the game quality is not impacted by a new code change, I am not going to make any promises that a given update starts out at the perfect level of balance. Even games like World of Warcraft that spend many months and hundreds of thousands of dollars on their beta programs (which involve hundreds of beta participants) regularly find that changes are needed once it goes live.

In light of that, and my goal of providing a stable (crash-free) game that slowly evolves to maintain freshness, I am pretty satisfied with our track record overall.

Given the level of concern about the prone causing neutral stance feature, there is a good chance there will be changes made, and probably sooner rather than later. But I still temper that desire by not wanting to come to a rash conclusion (which whether or not they are right or wrong, too many people on this thread are doing).

I don't know the reason for the removal of the last post, but I think the concern here is that you have by accident given bash a boost, which it never needed. The majority of concern comes from trying to tank a front row character. There have been some reasonable requests as ways to fix this issue without rolling back this update.

Opey's post was moved to a forum appropriate to the faction abilities it brought up.

Your anonymous source fails to take one very important fact into consideration, Dulrik.

The DPS guy up front that supposedly is going to be taking the risk of being up front to bash is actually taking less risk than prior to this change. Why? Because he was going to be up front and bashing anyways, and going to be in an aggressive stance to do so because bashing in aggressive stance is hugely accurate. Let's assume he is slower on the twitch bash than the guy bashing him. All of a sudden that DPS guy is now in neutral stance and his incoming damage is reduced as are his defensive debuffs. That still makes this change a buff to the DPS side of melee, and a nerf to the tank side, and that is exactly the opposite of what was needed.

Your second rank trip guy is also never going to be a swash, and swashes will still be reduced to a constant neutral stance from a) inability to render opponents prone due to the inaccuracy, success rate and limitations on trip and b) being forced to put themselves into a vulnerable position to being bashed.

It doesn't take 1000 hrs of beta testing, nor is it a rash conclusion, to understand that any debuff caused by prone (whether it's an offensive debuff by throwing DPS into neutral or a defensive debuff by throwing tanks into neutral) is going to be primarily executed and caused by the one skill in SK that is 95% guaranteed to cause prone. That skill being, of course, bash.

It's unfortunate and confusing that that practical reality to the PvP aspect of SK was overlooked, but it was and as of now this change is, at its core, a buff to bashing and the DPS half of melee. The overall effect buffs second- and third-rank characters overall and makes stance an actual consideration for them instead of front-line characters (that ranged spec merc that sits behind a pet and a guard is actually going to be using aggressive stance more effectively than the front-line melee dps), but that's almost a secondary result of this change. The primary and most impactful result is the buff to bashing.

A front-line melee character should not be in aggressive stance, and this update seems to reward that mistake/blunder. If that character get bashed, it changes them from aggressive to neutral stance and two things happen:

1. They will take LESS damage
2. They are LESS likely to get bashed again

Conversely, the exact opposite happens for the player that uses good judgment and employs defensive stance in the front rank. If that character gets bashed, it changes them from defensive to neutral stance and two things happen:

1. They will take MORE damage (less chance to parry, dodge, shield block, etc.)
2. They are MORE likely to get bashed again

This is very counter intuitive and the reason I dislike prone changing people to neutral stance - it punishes what I consider good judgment and rewards an all-out mongoloid/DPS play style.

EDIT - I don't really see this update as a buff to bash. I see this as a buff to aggressive stance and a nerf to defensive stance. Bash will end up working both for and against you, so it all evens out in the wash.