Shattered Kingdoms

Maybe I should put it this way to keep things even simpler.

Tribunal members should not be able to ignore the law when bringing law NPCs to attack a city of a tribunal they are at war with.

Do you disagree with this statement?

kid that would be like arguing that tribunal members should not be able to conjure darkness, or trap people with vines, or charge at them on magical steeds, or be immune to getting knocked prone, throw lances of darkness, use martial arts to toss enemies out of the room, etc. while using a tribunal guard to attack a city they are at war with

that argument is idiotic. but what i find really idiotic is that u fail to recognize that joining a tribunal as a member of every other cabal actually makes ur character more powerful. but joining a tribunal as a harlequin actually directly nerfs ur best cabal ability, making ur character less deadly, less powerful and less effective.

Coming from a person who actually had a harlie warlock, I couldnt even get into sith without having to fight the guards at the front gate. It kinda hindered my ability to scout effectively and I regret joining a tribunal for that reason.

So... you disagree with my bolded statement?

I think it's imbalanced and nonsensical that someone can be completely immune to the law and the bounty NPC system while attacking a warring city, yet also be able to have a tribunal NPC in their group. It just so happens that this combination is tribunal member + Harlequin.

There is no reason to talk in circles about this. If dulrik wants to code in the changes, that is up to him. I personally think it is not needed and the implications imo is that the wholist would be affected negatively. Dont say I never told you so if that happens.

not sure what part of my response ur not understanding, but i'll give u an analogy if that will make things more clear. i'll take a page from our old buddy wudan: if u join the harlequins, but don't join a tribunal then ur playing sk on ez mode cuz ur best cabal ability has no drawbacks....but if u join the harlequins and u also join a tribunal....well, ur now playing sk on hard mode cuz ur best cabal ability just got a self-imposed handicap.

ez mode vs hard mode

edoras vs wudan

i'll let dulrik and co decide whether or not they think playing sk on hard mode needs additional nerfs or not

I appreciate you actually trying to debate, and I see all of your points: But what I'm trying to say is that the primary harlie spell, outside of tribunal membership, is fine with me. They're a cabal built around the idea of being unpredictable, unreliable, and being impossible to stop in that regard. I think their signature skill is perfectly fine for accomplishing that goal, and that if it were not possible to join both a tribunal and a cabal, I would have no problem with it.

You keep saying that joining a tribunal is a bad choice in general for a Harlequin. I'm not disagreeing with you on that point. All characters who join a tribunal mechanically suffer the same drawbacks of being unable to enter the cities they're at war with while being able to bring guards to those same places and gaining law immunity in their hometown, but it's still a desirable option mechanically for members of all cabals, especially for support classes like priests. What I am saying is this: If you are in a tribunal, and you are at war with another tribunal, you are at a significant disadvantage if the enemy tribunal has Harlequins in it, -much- moreso than if the enemy tribunal had members of any other cabal in them.

Here's why.

The enemy Harlequin Tribunal members will be able to gate into your city while bringing their own guards without any risk of being outlawed for crimes. They will never spawn bounty NPCs and they will not aggro guards except for the ones which automatically attack warring tribunal members. You, and most likely all of your allies, will be unable to return the favor in kind, and after the first attack your tribunal makes on their soil, you will be fighting a constantly growing set of outlaw lists and bounty NPCs while your enemies will not. There is no cabal skillset that comes even close to touching the usefulness of being able to engage in perpetual city warfare without ever running the risk of being outlawed, and like it or not, the majority of PK happens in cities now because everyone can join a tribunal. It's an -extremely- unbalanced playing field to engage in tribunal warfare against a tribunal with Harlequins in it.

You keep saying that tribunals are a bad choice for Harlequin. Instead, consider this statement.

When war is declared between two tribunals, the tribunal with Harlequins in it is at a significant advantage.

If you think that the above statement is a good balanced state of the game, then you have no problem with the way things are. If you think the above statement is a bad state of balance for the game, then you agree with me that something should be changed about the strength of a tribunal that has Harlequins in it.

ur just making the same argument over and over

it didn't convince me the first half dozen times and it's not convincing me now.

This is really funny. I saw this multi-page pop up and thought there would be something interesting...

Let A represent "Joining the Harlequins" and B represent "Joining a tribunal."

Edoras: A+B is overpowered.

Finney: A + B isn't overpowered, because A+B < A

Edoras: Ok, but what about B + A?

Finney: B + A = A + B

Edoras: Ok, true, but what about B+C, where C represents joining any other cabal?

Finney: B + C > A + B, which negates your own original argument.

Edoras: Ok, but you're ignorning that B + A is overpowered. I already agree with you that A + B isn't! How can you ignore B + A? Do you disagree that B + A is overpowered? How can you agree that B + A is overpowered, but then what about A + B??