Shattered Kingdoms

I'll take the Harlies. Midnight and Druid have better room affects, while Fist and Hammer are more effective group combatants. Crucible's probably tied with Harlequin in my mind on the lowest tier, just like Harlie they can do some annoying things but rarely devastating ones.

Granted, I've historically been a more deliberate general and not someone like Syndal who runs all over the place like crazy. You're somewhere in between, so maybe Harlequin+Tribunal is just your achilles as opposed to the entire MUD's? Personally, when I have a group I like, I don't care how good Harlequins are at getting to an engagement, because I know I'll roll them when they arrive.

Fair enough, I can understand that point of view.

I still disagree on the fundamental basis that you're only going to get 1 good engagement in enemy territory as a non-harlie trib member, and getting caught in any of the 3 room affects generally means that you're going to be recalling very quickly. I don't think that there's any cabal skillset in tribunal warfare that comes even close to the ability to be law immune -and- bounty NPC immune, and I don't think that it's right thematically or balance-wise to allow anyone the perks of tribunal warfare (bringing guards to enemy territory) without the drawbacks of a constantly building outlaw list.

Aren't you describing the MC, too?

Only very slightly. MC can, with the proper preparation, commit crimes and have them be unreportable. Harlequins can be law immune. Here's some differences.

MC still spawn bounty NPCs using their sekrats. Harlies do not.
MC have to offensively use their sekrats to commit crimes, which takes prep time. Harlequins can carry their law immunity with them as a self-cast spell.
MC can't use their "law immunity" to avoid guard NPCs without repeated casts at a snails pace. Harlies can just... walk around, provided they avoid the aforementioned specific cityguard NPCs.
MC can't use their "law immunity" to do business.

Yes, harlie can move around well (though not as easily in a tribunal as solo). But, as I've already pointed out, MC rule in a fight because they have an area debuff that impacts combat as well as a strong defensive buff for their front line, which you've not accounted for. You are comparing apples to oranges and asking for oranges to be nerfed.... Just remember that lots of people like apples more already.

I don't think it's apples to oranges, because I'm comparing Harlie trib member to (insert any other cabal) trib member: For the MC and Harlies, both cabals have skillsets that excel at home defense and in enemy territory. It just so happens that Harlequins provide law immunity in a -much- more accessible way than the other. I can appreciate that there are other factors in play besides the sekrat harlie ability, both for Harlies and for other cabals. However, considering all of them, I do not think that any of them provide anything near the strength of the total law immunity that harlies have.

My proposed nerf, by the way, is really pretty minimal: I think that if you are using the sekrat harlie ability, you shouldn't be able to have a law NPC bodyguard. It's unfair to be able to be law immune to past and current crimes, including bounty NPCs, while also bringing a tribunal guard into enemy territory. If you want to bring a law NPC, you should have to suffer from the same penalties that all other tribunal members suffer from.

Yes, that is a nerf, but it doesn't impact any Harlie other than those who join a tribunal so that they can use their law immunity to provide them free reign in enemy territory with a tribunal guard. Just to be clear, I have no problem with the main harlie ability in general. I -do- have a problem with a tribunal member who is able to participate in tribunal warfare with a tribunal guard while playing on a totally different ruleset than everyone else. It's a twink combo that shouldn't exist.

Hypothetically:
Let's say that when two tribunals are at war, their law NPCs would be aggro to each other completely independently of any PCs in (or not in) the room.

It makes sense from a world viewpoint, but I don't normally make NPCs attack each other because it can be a big hit to performance of the game.

Still for the point of discussion, how would that change this argument?

Then I'd say problem solved. Honestly, it'd probably be better overall anyway, on account of the fact that currently anyone in a warring tribunal can waltz their own law NPCs into a city and bypass the vast majority of guard NPCs as long as the tribunal member isn't outlawed. That's always bothered me. "Hey, did you see Losquez the half-wolf run by with that hulking spear-wielding minotaur? Aren't we at war with them?" "Nahhhhh, they're probably just checking the Taproom's bar."

There's currently just way too much emphasis on avoiding being outlawed, there shouldn't be a huge advantage given to those who game the tribunal warfare system by purposefully avoiding high murder through charm, cabal spells, stun with poison/magma, etc.

One big thing, however: if that change meant that your tribunal bodyguards would automatically attack enemy tribunal guards when on the offensive, it would be a nerf to all tribunals' offensive power because it would make it impossible to, say, bypass undetecting guard NPCs while invisible with your invisible guard NPC.

Sounds like reasonable arguments from Edoras, but I'm curious about other viewpoints. I am not committed to the hypothetical change at all, so feel free to speak up against it.

this change would nerf all tribunals and all tribunal/cabal combos and increase the relative power of the harlequins cuz they r more powerful without a tribunal than with one. if ur goal is to buff the harlequins - this will accomplish that goal.

i get the feeling that's not what ur trying to do tho

lol

ur going to have a hard time fixing what isn't broken cuz the harlequins r more deadly, effective and powerful without a tribunal than with one. so any change u make is going to end up buffing the harlequins one way or another. whether it is a nerf to tribunals or some other change that will inadvertently cause people to make the right decision and not join a tribunal as a harlequin.